Aggravated Robbery in Houston

Glockamolie · Post by **Glockamolie** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:08 pm

Probably the best deal on a home defense 870:

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... s_id/95077

lrb111 · Post by **lrb111** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:24 pm

Here's mine.
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... s_id/42605 I think it was $20 cheaper at Academy. Add a Knox low recoil stock, and it's a nice solid tactical for under $300.

Glockamolie · Post by **Glockamolie** » Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:38 pm

Yeah, but everyone will make fun of you with a Maverick.

I can say that, because I've owned that very one pictured for over 15 years. It's the trunk gun, and has never failed me.

I want the 870 for a HD shotgun, but can't fathom a reason to discard my Winchester 1300 Defender to get one.

Post by **Skiprr** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:57 am

Remington even packages the 870 now in a special tactical model, including an improved fixed choke, magazine extension, and the Knoxx stock is available as an option.

But you can buy the Knoxx direct for about $120 and it's less than a 10-minute job to mount it. And believe it or not, I too have a Mossy 88 that's over 15 years old.

stevie_d_64 · Post by **stevie_d_64** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:38 am

kauboy wrote:You just couldn't leave well enough alone, could ya stevie?

No...You gave me a headache...Thanks a bunch!!!

Come back to the light!!! Kauboy!!! Head to the light!!!

G.C.Montgomery · Post by **G.C.Montgomery** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 9:38 am

Stupid wrote:Saying taking head shot beyond 50 yards with shotgun is same as saying that someone can put a coin inside your brain within 10 feet with their bare hands.

Yes, it can be done, but most of us are NOT trained professionals. In the highly stressed situation, one must choose the most handy weapon for him/her.

50yrds with a shotgun is WELL within the abilities of anyone who can safely operate a shotgun. Striking a six to eight inch target at that distance can easily be accomplished with bead sights but it's far easier with rifle-sights. A human head is generally larger than a six or eight-inch plate so trust me when I say it doesn't take a master to make that kind of shot. Additionally, of the West Houston IDPA guys I shoot with regularly, I can only think of one who is a "trained professional." As SeamusTX pointed out, hunters regularly make 50yrd shots with shotguns as well. And I can assure you that most hunters ARE NOT trained professionals.

You really need to do more than read about the performance of various weapon systems if you are going to use a firearm for self-defense. As money allows, you really should invest in pistol, shotgun and rifle training. I had zero experience on shotguns before taking my first class with Gregg Garrett....After only a few minutes, I was making headshots with buckshot out to seven yards and felt throughly comfortable with pushing all the way out to 100yds with slugs.

While I am in the boat of those who would choose a rifle, that is a decision made after full consideration of my own unique situation. I still consider the shotgun a great choice. I would argue as many here do, that for most self/home-defense situations in the city, it's the best choice for most people. And if you think that 50yards with slugs in shotgun is like...How did put it? "...someone can put a coin inside your brain within 10 feet with their bare hands," Then you REALLY can't think that a rifle is any safer.

Since you "are not a trained professional," you have to accept the probability that you will miss some of the time. The downrange danger area with shotguns is limited to less than 100yards with with almost any kind of shot and just a few hundred yards with slugs. Buck shot typically can be contained by the exterior walls of many homes. Compare that with 5.56NATO's ability to penetrate anything short of a brick exterior, a downrange danger area in excess of 1000 yards and I don't see how you can believe an AR15 is the safer choice.

Jeremae · Post by **Jeremae** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:03 pm

Best of both worlds....

870 mounted M203 style on AR platform....

Tote 9 · Post by **Tote 9** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:03 pm

AV8R wrote:My vote goes to the 12ga. It has the best stopping power, versatility, and performance-to-cost ratio of anything you can get for home defense. With birdshot, which is quite effective up close, the safety of other family members in the home is assured. Slugs have more than enough accuracy for a hostage shot if you're up to it, even out to 75 yards or so. If someone is inside your home and coming for you, you would always trade whatever you had in your hand for a 12ga. My 870 has a laser, which helps with those awkward positions, as well.

I'm with you,I haven't had a lot of experince with pistols but I
have with shotguns & rifles. Given a choice, if someone broke into my
home I would much rather face them with a 12 ga. loaded with no. 4
squirll shot or no. 4 buck.

Greybeard · Post by **Greybeard** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:11 pm

G.C. - I wus right there with on just about all of it ya until this part:

"The downrange danger area with shotguns is limited to less than 100yards with with almost any kind of shot ... "

' Had a guy about 50-something in a hunter ed. class a few years back. Not a pretty man to begin with, but really hard to look at that night. He'd stopped 13 pellets (6s) while looking right down muzzle of dove hunting "buddy". Said he stepped if off later at 91 yards. 4 pellets got him in neck and face. Buried up so deep his wife had spent 2 1/2 days going after 'em with tweezers

before he gave up and went to doctor.

2s. BB's and such gonna bury up even deeper. Buckshot, being around 30 caliber and starting out over 1,000 fps can be deadly way on out there ...

Sarah81 · Post by **Sarah81** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:26 pm

I'm going to have to go with a 12-gauge for the home defense situation. Despite being a 5'6" female who weighs all of 130 lbs. when wearing waterlogged clothing (including sneakers), the recoil and overall shooting is not "difficult" for me (despite what Stupid had to say about it).

Other than being comfortable with shotguns, the other big factor - stopping power - also appeals to me. Oh, and the sound that a pump action makes...ah, can you really beat that adrenaline inducing noise? :)

Boma · Post by **Boma** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:32 pm

What do you guys think of semi-auto shotguns? Aren't they superior to regular pumps (although pumps are already highly effective)?.

G.C.Montgomery · Post by **G.C.Montgomery** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:40 am

Greybeard wrote:G.C. - I wus right there with on just about all of it ya until this part:

"The downrange danger area with shotguns is limited to less than 100yards with with almost any kind of shot ... "

' Had a guy about 50-something in a hunter ed. class a few years back. Not a pretty man to begin with, but really hard to look at that night. He'd stopped 13 pellets (6s) while looking right down muzzle of dove hunting "buddy". Said he stepped if off later at 91 yards. 4 pellets got him in neck and face. Buried up so deep his wife had spent 2 1/2 days going after 'em with tweezers before he gave up and went to doctor.

2s. BB's and such gonna bury up even deeper. Buckshot, being around 30 caliber and starting out over 1,000 fps can be deadly way on out there ...

It's a mistake on my part...Sorry about that. The danger area certainly is greater than 100 yards with shot. I was thinking about the effective range of shotguns in general at the time. My bad.

AV8R · Post by **AV8R** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:59 am

Greybeard wrote:G.C. - I wus right there with on just about all of it ya until this part:

"The downrange danger area with shotguns is limited to less than 100yards with with almost any kind of shot ... "

' Had a guy about 50-something in a hunter ed. class a few years back. Not a pretty man to begin with, but really hard to look at that night. He'd stopped 13 pellets (6s) while looking right down muzzle of dove hunting "buddy". Said he stepped if off later at 91 yards. 4 pellets got him in neck and face. Buried up so deep his wife had spent 2 1/2 days going after 'em with tweezers :shock: before he gave up and went to doctor.

2s. BB's and such gonna bury up even deeper. Buckshot, being around 30 caliber and starting out over 1,000 fps can be deadly way on out there ...

Right on. Shotguns are devastating weapons, even at considerable range. As an example, my old 870, which has a 20", choked, rifle-sighted barrel, will pattern 00B at 18" at 75 yards. At an initial 1600 ft/sec velocity, the 00B is quite lethal at that range.

Comparing firepower to an AR, three 00B shells contain about the same number of projectiles as a 30-round magazine of 5.56, and I (or anyone else) can deliver them in less than a second and a half, without getting in a hurry. Of course, it only takes one of either in the right place to do the job.

By the way, I kinda like 00B for the car, but really prefer 4s or 6s for the house.

Regarding automatics: they jam a lot.

G.C.Montgomery · Post by **G.C.Montgomery** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:04 am

[quote="Boma"]What do you guys think of semi-auto shotguns? Aren't they superior to regular pumps (although pumps are already highly effective)?.[/quote

Boma, I personally prefer auto-loading shotguns but I wouldn't go so far as to say they are superior. Each system has it's trade-offs. Which is best depends on your needs and perferences.

The pump's primary advantages are high reliability and a lack of ammunition sensitivity often found in auto-loaders. Pumps don't have issues with light or reduced recoil loads. I find it's faster to perform emergency reloads or swap ammunition (trade buck for slugs mid-fight) with most pumps. Pumps are also very simple and require little work in the way of maintenance.

On the other hand, auto-loaders tend to be faster guns overall. There are some VERY fast shotgunners out there but, I haven't met one yet who could stroke and fire a pump faster than I my best splits on an auto-loading shotgun. Auto-loaders tend to shoot softer and have less felt recoil than their pump cousins. Gas operated auto-loaders like the Remington 1100/1187 and Benelli M4 also tend to offer less felt recoil than recoil operated guns like Benelli's M1 or M2. The problem is, this can mean that light and reduced recoil ammunition may fail to operate the gun.

Tote 9 · Post by **Tote 9** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:02 am

G.C.Montgomery wrote:
On the other hand, auto-loaders tend to be faster guns overall. There are some VERY fast shotgunners out there but, I haven't met one yet who could stroke and fire a pump faster than I my best splits on an auto-loading shotgun. Auto-loaders tend to shoot softer and have less felt recoil than their pump cousins. Gas operated auto-loaders like the Remington 1100/1187 and Benelli M4 also tend to offer less felt recoil than recoil operated guns like Benelli's M1 or M2. The problem is, this can mean that light and reduced recoil ammunition may fail to operate the gun.

I agree, I was once challenged by a pump user who said he could shoot faster
than I could with my auto. No way. the stroke on a pump is much
longer than a trigger pull. I recently sold 2, 12 ga. Browning autos that was
44 yrs. old. They performed well for the man that bought them.
Like any other auto they have to be cleaned & oiled more often than a pump.

Any auto takes energy from the shell to eject the case, so you will lose some
energy in ft. lbs. I do not shoot light loads. Even on birds I shoot 7- 1/2s.
I just like autos, I don't own anything else except my deer rifle.