Had a Slight Issue Tonight Everyone Might Want to Consider

[KBCraig]

Why would you expect to be asked for ID if you were a passenger, not the driver? I have never been asked for ID while I was a passenger of a car that had been pulled over. Not even when my buddy got nailed street racing back when we were kids.

Hmm, because in my experience the passenger was always asked for their ID. Out of 6 stops only 1 was I not asked for my ID as a passenger (well 7 and 2 now).

You're under no obligation to provide it.

Just want to be sure I read this right...If you were a passenger in a car, and an officer asked you for ID, you wouldn't show it? Even if you're carrying? I may have it wrong, but I thought I was obligated to show the officer my CHL if I'm carrying and he/she asks for ID.

A passenger is under no obligation to produce --or even have-- any form of identification. We haven't reached the point of "Ihre Papieren, bitte!" in this country. Yet.

The exception, of course, is if the officer is investigating the passenger. Before declining to show ID, I would politely ask if I was under investigation.

Take note of the wording in the law:
GC §411.205. DISPLAYING LICENSE; PENALTY. (a) If a license
holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person
when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder
display identification, the license holder shall display both the license
holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by the
department and the license holder's handgun license. A person who
fails or refuses to display the license and identification as required by
this subsection is subject to suspension of the person's license as
provided by Section 411.187.

"Demand" has a different meaning than "request". An officer may demand ID from a person he suspects of a crime. If he doesn't suspect you of a crime, he's only requesting identification, and you're not obliged to fulfill such a request.

Being a stickler for your rights can get you crossways with certain officers who are accustomed to demanding their way and getting it. As always, being polite and non-threatening is the first order of business.

Kevin

[seamusTX]

Being a stickler for your rights can get you crossways with certain officers who are accustomed to demanding their way and getting it. As always, being polite and non-threatening is the first order of business.

This is an important caveat for a car full of young people driving around after dark. Stuff happens.

- Jim

[srothstein]

Actually, I am not sure on the law in this case, Kevin.

Under normal circumstances, with no CHL involved, you are almost 100% correct in how to answer as the passenger in the car. The error is that you do not have to answer even if you are the one under investigation.

Under the Penal Code, Failure to Identify can only be charged if you are a suspect or witness who provides a false name, home address, or date of birth. But the only time you can be charged with this for refusing is if you are under arrest. If you are wlaking down the street, for example, and an officer wants to ask you something, you can legally ignore him and keep walking. If you stop to listen to him, as a common courtesy, you do not have to answer him at all, including giving him your name.

This gets a little confusing when you are driving because by law, the driver has to show the DL on demand. Even more confusing is the court decision I previously mentioned that says that a traffic stop is an arrest. This makes refusing to give your name a separate crime.

But a traffic stop is almost never an arrest for the passenger. So, the passenger does not have to do anything or answer anything, including a resuest for ID. The exception being if the stop was for something like the passenger throwing trash out the window or the passenger being seen with an open container of alcohol. Then the passenger is the one under arrest and the laws apply to him on identifying.

But, to make the issue more confusing, throw in a CHL. Govenrment Code section 411.205 says that you must produce both your CHL and DL if you are asked for it by an officer or magistrate and are armed. Well, technically it says they have to demand it not ask, but you know what I mean. This section makes no difference between being asked as a suspect, a witness, or a stranger. Under the strictest application of this section, I could walk up to a person on the street and demand his ID. If he is a CHL and armed, he must give it to me, even if I selected him at random for no reason. The good news is that the first offense is not really a crime. The first time you refuse, your CHL will be suspended only. The second time is a Class B.

And that raises the interesting legal theory of what happens if I am the passenger, as in the incident under discussion, and ignore the officer and refuse to talk. He will get mad, probably arrest me and search me. He will find the license and be able to iddentify me. But the arrest and search are illegal and the evidence would get thrown out. With the evidence goes any record of his knowing who I am, so how can my CHL get suspended?

[Will938]

Why would you expect to be asked for ID if you were a passenger, not the driver? I have never been asked for ID while I was a passenger of a car that had been pulled over. Not even when my buddy got nailed street racing back when we were kids.

Hmm, because in my experience the passenger was always asked for their ID. Out of 6 stops only 1 was I not asked for my ID as a passenger (well 7 and 2 now).

You're under no obligation to provide it.

If he asks for my ID then I am obligated (as I understand it) to show him both my License and CHL. I'm pretty sure I won't get in trouble for refusing to show my license, but he can always detain me to asertain my identity. As for my CHL I'm pretty sure I WILL get into trouble if he asks for my ID and I don't produce it/inform them. Based on past experience I just assumed it was coming and got it ready so I wouldn't have to go reaching into any dark places.

[longtooth]

Wife did that once too. Got her DL slid behind her CHL the previous time it was out. Produced "DL" to clerk who said, Huuumm, never seen one of these but been thinking of getting one. Wife encouraged it & we went our way.
Lufkin is still generally gun friendly.

[Tote 9]

I've had to show DL many times for different reasons,- credit card purchases,
prescription drugs, etc. When I open my wallet the first thing you see is my
DL. & my CHL. You can't see one without seeing the other. I have never been
questioned nor had any comments about my CHL.

[KBCraig]

Actually, I am not sure on the law in this case, Kevin.

Under normal circumstances, with no CHL involved, you are almost 100% correct in how to answer as the passenger in the car.

I welcome correction if someone knows the case law, but I recall reading that it had been ruled (in a non-CHL scenario) that it's only a "demand" for identification when the officer has a reason to detain and investigate. Absent evidence of crime being afoot, a passenger in a car that was stopped for a traffic infraction simply doesn't meet any requirement to produce ID.

If there is not some minimum standard for "demands identification", then a simple "What's your name?" could invoke a requirement to show the CHL. (Yes, I know, GC411 says "demands ... display identification".)

I'm not suggesting everyone --or anyone-- follow my advice. But if they do, here's now it goes:

Officer: "... and I need to see your ID too, sir."
Passenger: "Sir, just so I'm clear about this, am I required to show you identification?"

At that point, things will go one of two ways. The first, most likely, is that the officer will continue fishing without directly answering the question. "Why don't you want to show your ID? Do you have something to hide? Are there any warrants on you?"

The second would be that the officer would order the passenger out of the car and frisk for "officer safety", at which point the CHL is probably going to endure a few hours or more in custody. Any charges would be thrown out, but it wouldn't be fun.

And there's also a third, very unlikely possibility: that the officer would just answer "No" and go about his business. But an officer like that would be very unlikely to ask passengers for ID in the first place.

In the Hiibel ruling, SCOTUS said officers can demand ID from anyone if state law allows it, but there is no such requirement in Texas law.

Kevin

[Tote 9]

After reading everything and thinking it over if I were a passenger and was
asked for an ID, I would show the LEO both DL & CHL to avoid trouble and
delay. If someone I was riding with objected to my having a CHL or carrying
then I would next time exercise my right to drive my own vehicle.

[TX Rancher]

Thanks for the education guys! I really thought I was required to show ID. Learn something new everyday

Now knowing what the requirements are, I would still show the officer ID if he/she requested it just out of a desire to avoid a problem, but it’s nice to know what I’m required to do, and what I don’t have to do.

Again, thanks for the education

[mec]

Thanks for sharing. A very thought provoking experience. The licenses taped back to back is a deal adoped by a local guy who forgot to show the travis county so his chl when they pulled him over. It took him a full day to get out of stir and eventually a large fine for the traffic violation to get them to drop the failure to show thing. After that, he taped them together and others have followed his example.

"Don't get in cars with liberals"

Yes but it's not near as dangerous as marrying one. A guy and his stupid and/or liberal wife were at the bank when a robber yells everybody to the floor. While they were lying there, wifey goes " Uhhhhhhh. Don't take out your guuuunnnnnnnn!" The robber immediately executed the dude.

[1TallTXn]

Last time I was stopped I had 3 other friends in the truck with me. None hold CHLs.
One is my room mate and knows I have a CHL, he's rarely aware that I am carrying.
The other two had no clue I hold a CHL.
One of those had no problem with it and started telling stories of people and guns (after the stop)
The other never said a word so I don't have a clue where he stands on it.

The officer disarmed me and went back to the truck (I was at his car) and asked them if they were carrying a gun, but never asked for IDs.

If I'm in a car that is stopped, I'm going to sit very still with my hands visible. Unless the officer directly asks me for my ID, they are remaining in my wallet.

course after reading this thread, I realize I don't have to hand it to him. I most likely would in the even that happened just to speed things up.