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Re: sued for what kind of ammo we carry?
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:57 pm
by speedsix
Keith B wrote:The Black Talon media hype was driven by claims it was 'cop killer' ammo that had 'special powers' because of the 'evil' black coating (Lubalox) that would penetrate any body amour out there. Additionally it was designed for killing and would kill you more dead than other bullets, blah blah. It was all contrived by lawyers and the press. Olin chose to pull it from the market in 1993 after they were sued by a family member of someone killed by a Black Talon round in the Long Island Railroad mass killing that year and because of all of the negative press they were getting about the ammo and its magical properties. The bullet beneath the Lubalox coating is the same one used today in the Winchester SXT (Same 'Xact Thing) ammo.
What I think the DPS is trying to do in their classes, but doing a poor job of explaining apparently, is that ANYTHING with a name like Zombie Max, Black Talon, Super Kill Plus, DRT (Dead Right There),yada yada ammo will be used by anyone trying to hang you out on a shooting. That is a common tactic. Lawyers are going to try and twist every angle they can to show you as a bad person just looking to kill someone, including saying your mother raised you to be a stone cold killer because she let you watch the Coyote try to take out the Road Runner Saturday after Saturday when you were a kid.
DPS was also saying that non-compliant signs may need to be headed also, as they do convey the intent of the property owner, and that a prosecutor in a particular locale may decide to push their luck and charge you for criminal trespass and then let the Judge make the decision.
It all goes back to knowing what is legal and what is not. While you may get caught in a lawsuit, as long as you were within your rights and following the law, you should win out in the end. At that point you just have to go back and sue for restitution on false arrest. I personally am not going to live in a world of paranoia and 'what if'.
Now, am I going to carry Zombie Max ammo? Probably not. That is not unless the Apocalypse happens in November and I need to take some really good head shots.
...they are ineffective on coneheads...my CHL instructor said so...
Re: sued for what kind of ammo we carry?
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:38 pm
by RPB
A buddy of a friend of a guy who knew a person's cousin that took a CHL course told me that a CHL instructor said ...
that using "dum dum bullets" could get you sued for political incorrect slandering of the intelligence challenged.
We carried wadcutters/semiwadcutters in Dallas a while in the 70s in our 6 shooter S&Ws at a Security company which took care of the Dallas Convention Center... The company furnished/issued the belts/holsters/guns etc ... on the graveyard shift, I got the privilege of polishing leathers and cleaning guns for everyone else (It beat what the daytime guys had to do).
Re: sued for what kind of ammo we carry?
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:14 pm
by Lambda Force
The type of ammo you carry is small taters compared to the fact
YOU WERE CARRYING A GUN! 
OMG!!!1
Re: sued for what kind of ammo we carry?
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:22 pm
by C-dub
wgoforth wrote:In CHL Instructor class, the DPS instructors were telling that we should be careful what kind of ammo we carry. That names like "Black Talon...It Tears Them Up" and "Zombie Max" could get us in trouble in a real shooting, as it could show we intentionally wanted to do extra damage. Question: Is anyone REALLY concerned with being sued over what kind of ammo they carry?
Did anyone happen to ask either of those instructors what they carried in their guns?
Re: sued for what kind of ammo we carry?
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:41 pm
by The Annoyed Man
wgoforth wrote:In CHL Instructor class, the DPS instructors were telling that we should be careful what kind of ammo we carry. That names like "Black Talon...It Tears Them Up" and "Zombie Max" could get us in trouble in a real shooting, as it could show we intentionally wanted to do extra damage. Question: Is anyone REALLY concerned with being sued over what kind of ammo they carry?
No, not really
that concerned.....but then I don't carry any ammo that is more "lethally named"—not by conscious decision, but simply by happy accident. If you're concerned about it, just ask your local beat cop what the department issues to them, and then use that ammo. If you are ever called to testify about that choice, you can say that you chose it because you know that police departments select their ammo for its reliability, accuracy, and for its ability to not overpenetrate and unintentionally injure
innocent bystanders. You therefore thought that this would be the most responsible thing to do, and your choice was motivated by wanting to be a good citizen.
Re: sued for what kind of ammo we carry?
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:46 pm
by JJVP
RPB wrote:In the 80s, I used to mostly carry Silvertips ....I figured it was multi-purpose ... Lone Ranger liked Silver Bullets, and good for Vampires
[youtube]
http://youtube.com/watch?v=StWWbb9-lME[/youtube]
Re: sued for what kind of ammo we carry?
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:56 pm
by rwg3
The instructor in the class I took spent a fair bit of time talking about this issue. He specifically mentioned that we should seek out ammunition labeled as personal defense rounds. He explained that it was all part of the strategy to have a consistent rationale that you carry only to defend yourself from illegal actions of others who seek to harm you.
He is a Lt. in a city police department and claimed that he was familiar with situations where the type of ammunition used became an issue in the civil lawsuits that often follow the resolution of any potential criminal charges. His comment was that the BG's family would have their choice of lawyers approaching them offering to file a suit, usually on a contingency basis, and that the civil suits were often more of gamble on the outcome.
Re: sued for what kind of ammo we carry?
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:31 pm
by wgoforth
The Annoyed Man wrote:wgoforth wrote:In CHL Instructor class, the DPS instructors were telling that we should be careful what kind of ammo we carry. That names like "Black Talon...It Tears Them Up" and "Zombie Max" could get us in trouble in a real shooting, as it could show we intentionally wanted to do extra damage. Question: Is anyone REALLY concerned with being sued over what kind of ammo they carry?
No, not really
that concerned.....but then I don't carry any ammo that is more "lethally named"—not by conscious decision, but simply by happy accident. If you're concerned about it, just ask your local beat cop what the department issues to them, and then use that ammo. If you are ever called to testify about that choice, you can say that you chose it because you know that police departments select their ammo for its reliability, accuracy, and for its ability to not overpenetrate and unintentionally injure
innocent bystanders. You therefore thought that this would be the most responsible thing to do, and your choice was motivated by wanting to be a good citizen.
Thats just it... I'm not personally concerned at all. I was just wondering based on what we were told if that was really an issue for anyone. Unfortunatly, some PD's (ours included) buys theirs based on what kind of a price they could get it at.
Re: sued for what kind of ammo we carry?
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:33 pm
by wgoforth
C-dub wrote:wgoforth wrote:In CHL Instructor class, the DPS instructors were telling that we should be careful what kind of ammo we carry. That names like "Black Talon...It Tears Them Up" and "Zombie Max" could get us in trouble in a real shooting, as it could show we intentionally wanted to do extra damage. Question: Is anyone REALLY concerned with being sued over what kind of ammo they carry?
Did anyone happen to ask either of those instructors what they carried in their guns?
Please keep in mind these were DPS officers... this was instructor school not just a CHL class.
Re: sued for what kind of ammo we carry?
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:43 pm
by apostate
AndyC wrote:Probably this stuff:
U 2 can has being like ninja agents and chicks will dig u
[youtube]
http://youtube.com/watch?v=QqLYtuU9quY[/youtube]
Re: sued for what kind of ammo we carry?
Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:58 pm
by MasterOfNone
Keith B wrote:What I think the DPS is trying to do in their classes, but doing a poor job of explaining apparently, is that ANYTHING with a name like Zombie Max, Black Talon, Super Kill Plus, DRT (Dead Right There),yada yada ammo will be used by anyone trying to hang you out on a shooting. That is a common tactic. Lawyers are going to try and twist every angle they can to show you as a bad person just looking to kill someone
This is exactly why Ayoob recommended against it. Especially when a shooting is not a perfectly clear good shooting, every little thing that may be distorted to reflect on your character will likely be tried by the lawyers. And when jurors are not quite sure, such silly little things could sway someone. The key, as with all aspects of your carrying and shooting, is being able to articulate the rationale for your choice - "It's what such and such police use," "Based on ballistic testing I found, it appeared to be the safest choice," "It was recommended by Jeff Cooper...."
Re: sued for what kind of ammo we carry?
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:06 am
by Medic218
Beiruty wrote:Find a new CHL instructor. Almost all of us use defense-rds, I carry Speer Gold-Dots, sounds like 007 bullets, no?
If you are afraid to carrry, "black talon", then get Winchester SXT, SXT stands for "Same Exact Thing" as Black Talon.
Testing for the poor man:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... Dg&cad=rja" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1:19 The french carry guns? lol
Re: sued for what kind of ammo we carry?
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:14 am
by Beiruty
MedicMan218 wrote:Beiruty wrote:Find a new CHL instructor. Almost all of us use defense-rds, I carry Speer Gold-Dots, sounds like 007 bullets, no?
If you are afraid to carrry, "black talon", then get Winchester SXT, SXT stands for "Same Exact Thing" as Black Talon.
Testing for the poor man:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... Dg&cad=rja" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1:19 The french carry guns? lol
Yeah, French do carry guns, Britsh carry only a baton
Let London burns to the ground.
Re: sued for what kind of ammo we carry?
Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:35 am
by Jumping Frog
rwg3 wrote:The instructor in the class I took spent a fair bit of time talking about this issue. He specifically mentioned that we should seek out ammunition labeled as personal defense rounds. He explained that it was all part of the strategy to have a consistent rationale that you carry only to defend yourself from illegal actions of others who seek to harm you.
When I first started carrying, I carried the same model handgun and the same ammunition brand as my local police. I think I got the idea from reading Ayoob somewhere. The rationale was I could explain my choices as I was not an expert or professional on firearm technology or ammunition, but I believed my police force had determined it was a safe and effective choice.
Also, if the prosecutor (criminal) or opposing counsel (civil) started in with a theory about "super deadly choices" (17 round magazine! Exploding hollow point cop-killer bullets!), it would be easily rebutted by the first police officer that had to testify. "Officer X, what service weapon does your department issue for standard carry? . . . "
I have since moved away from that rationale, but when I first started carrying I was far more concerned about Ayoob's warnings.