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Bullwhip wrote:Funny thing though, so many want to do almost the same thing for immigration and voting.

I think you are reaching on that one.

Since discussion of this subject is impossible without considering the religious implications, I'll offer the following.......

Personally, I subscribe to the "pre-tribulation" eschatological interpretation of Revelation. If my belief is correct, I won't be here for any enforced barcoding. Three of the relevant passages (among many) are:

Matthew 24:36-44:

36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

New International Version, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

....and....

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17:

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

New International Version, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

....and....

Revelation 13:11-17:

11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12 It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13 And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14 Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name.

New International Version, http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=NIV

Please understand, I am not talking about religion and quoting scripture for the purposes of trying to convert all of you who are "heathens." (...although it would not upset me if it did work....) The reason I am posting these things is to explain why I am not worried about this barcode stuff. This is, after all, a discussion about the barcodes.

If pre-tribulation tribulation eschatology is correct, the rapture of the Church will have occurred before the "mark of the beast" is implemented. Of course, this doesn't discount the possibility that post-trib eschatology is the correct interpretation, in which case everyone is in for a world of hurt, but most particularly believers will be persecuted. However, Scripture seems to indicate that the "mark of the beast" will follow the rapture of the church.

I realize that, for those of you who are either not religiously inclined or at least are not Christians, or who are religiously inclined Christians who subscribe to a post-trib eschatology, these passages are probably no particular comfort. But I personally believe strongly in these things. IF I am wrong, then I have bigger issues than a barcode, and I'll need to go back to Scripture and prayer for greater understanding. Also, if I am wrong, and it is time to resort to the bullet box instead of the ballot box and I am killed in that effort, then I'm OK with that because I know exactly where I am headed.

So where I would disagree with fickman (who is a strong fellow believer) is that religious freedom as a concept will not be an issue. God's plan is in effect, regardless and in spite of government's respect for our freedoms, religious or otherwise. I think we both would agree that such an enforced barcoding system would constitute the "mark of the beast," but that if we are committed believers, we will be compelled to civil disobedience regardless of the consequences if such a thing occurs.

I would like to think that no good American, religious or not, who considers themselves to be a patriot that believes in the concept of liberty, would allow themselves to be barcoded. They tattooed those Jewish folks and slaughtered them with no more regard than if they had been animals. NOTHING has made a greater impact on me than watching "The World At War" with my dad as a child, and seeing what was done to those people. As I got older and learned more, I have come to realize that it doesn't matter if its Nazis or Communists...they are ALL reprehensible and evil to the nth degree.

gdanaher wrote:It isn't going to happen for a number of reasons. Religious freedom first gets in the way. I know many folks (perhaps some here) are, shall I say, cafeteria Christians. Not meaning to offend anyone, but some people take religion literally and some don't, choosing to pick and choose those aspects that they are happy with, or which are convenient. Levit 19:28 is pretty specific in stating that you will not damage the skin, a la tattoos and such, but many Christians do anyway. An orthodox Jew who observes the Law would never allow anything be done such as a tattoo, or a bar code, or any other permanent device. Just won't happen, and religious freedom guarantees the government won't do this.

Secondly, the march of technology gets in the way. There are octogenarians reading this and you know for yourself how things have changed. Even during the computer era, try to find a floppy disk reader. No not one of the 3.5 inch or 5.25 inch, but the big one. Your movies have gone from Beta to VHS to CD to DVD to Blueray, and I bet I'm missing something.

Third, identification theft is a huge problem right now and will only get worse. If you have a chip that can be read, someone you don't want to read it will, and then he can replicate the information. Think about the fun the criminal justice system would have with false identification and false convictions based on chip evidence.

It isn't going to happen.

Never say Never. If the conditions were right....
Amazing i'm in my 50's. Years ago we used to look at those verses in the Bible and say - yea right. Can't buy or sell stuff without the mark of the beast. How is that going to work? 40 years ago, it was unworkable or "impossible", but because the bible said it - i believed it. Again, that is me and my source for standards of absolutes. But well well. Today it is possible, imagine that? Yea the worlds population could be controlled. Then imagine all the social engineering that the Liberals could do - all because they know whats "best" for me. Weird stuff is happening today. I think I'll go out and buy another Glock maybe AR15

The Annoyed Man wrote:So where I would disagree with fickman

In this thread? I just made a quip about IPv6 and a post decrying pragmatism.

You are, however, correct!

A tribulation? That happened in AD 70! It's ancient history!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_pr ... _preterism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism

A rapture? Not since 2001 when I went from dispensationalist pre-trib pre-mil eschatology to historic pre-mil (which is post-trib). . . a necessary step for most Baptists on the journey to amillennialism (where I've landed since about 2003). (Come along for the ride!)

Seriously, though, I'm 90% in Louis Berkhof's a-mil camp and 10% in Wayne Grudem's historic pre-mil camp. The Berkhof leaning has grown consistently each year since 2003.

All we're waiting on now is for the Lord to return!

fickman wrote:All we're waiting on now is for the Lord to return!

Either way, that is the truth.

george wrote:Calvinists

That's when my end-times views changed. . .

The Annoyed Man wrote:

fickman wrote:All we're waiting on now is for the Lord to return!

Either way, that is the truth.

"Pre, mid, post, I don't care I'm on the first bus out!"
Preacher I once heard. Pretty cool guy.

If you're pre trib and we can't be marked before the rapture but they're marking us already, does that mean we missed the rapture?

Bullwhip wrote:"Pre, mid, post, I don't care I'm on the first bus out!"
Preacher I once heard. Pretty cool guy.

If you're pre trib and we can't be marked before the rapture but they're marking us already, does that mean we missed the rapture?

Bullwhip, I sent you a PM because I didn't want to derail this thread any further.

I've been really busy lately, so I apologize in advance if this has been posted. Just seems to fit well here:

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=2Xwf0dP1XBw[/youtube]

Fangs wrote:I've been really busy lately, so I apologize in advance if this has been posted. Just seems to fit well here:

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=2Xwf0dP1XBw[/youtube]

...hope you're not too busy to cite your source in the law...I don't have time to read the whole thing...I'm practicing to be a legislator...

Meh, nevermind:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/microchip.asp