Gunman Kills 5 in Utah Shopping Mall

G.C.Montgomery · Post by **G.C.Montgomery** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:29 pm

I agree, he probably wasn't in a continuous exchange of gunfire. Even with two or three reloads, it probably wouldn't have been wise to continue launching rounds once he had the BG cornered unless he knew those rounds would connect with the threat and help end the fight. While I'm disappointed (but not surprised) he didn't have any reloads, from what I've heard, I think he did acted as best he could with what he had. I'm also not sure it could have been done much better by any of us Monday morning QBing.

Think about it this way...If you carry two reloads with the average medium or full-size pistol today, you've ve got 25-50 rounds of ammunition. That's not really enough ammunition to effectively gain fire superiority and suppress enemy fire as one might do on contact with an enemy force in the military. You don't have a saw gunner and two or three riflemen carrying a minumum of 210 rounds each. If all you have is 25-50 rounds, you've got to make the most of them and it would be foolish to launch bullets for the sake of "keeping his head down" once you've got the BG cornered and mostly quiet. From what I've heard, that's pretty much where the BG was when the first uniforms arrived. So again, I think the cop did OK.

lrb111 · Post by **lrb111** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:36 pm

Here's the previously mentioned video. Sets some questions aside, raises others.
It's a little bit of a gut check, since we know the consequences, but no gore.

http://www.ifilm.com/video/2823566/channel/viralvideo

edit: i don't believe the shooter is in the clip.....

rodnocker1 · Post by **rodnocker1** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:52 pm

I definitely agree with not just throwing lead. We are always responsible for each and every round we fire. The BG is doing enough damage without us injuring/killing anyone else.

G.C.Montgomery · Post by **G.C.Montgomery** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:57 pm

rodnocker1 wrote:Over on the 1911forum.com site, someone posed a question about "how many mags do you carry?". It seems like the general concensus was that if you can't get the problem contained with just 7 shots (1 mag), you had no business carrying a weapon. Personally, I think that you can never have enough. If the situation can be neutralized in 1 round or 1 mag, then "Great!", leave the other mags holstered. My daily CCW is an XD45 with 14 rnds of 230 gr. HP in the gun and 2 spare mags. If that isn't enough, then hopefully one of my fellow CHL Brothers or Sisters (or an LEO) will be there to take over where I leave off.

I've gotten tired of that kind of machismo from keyboard/gunstore commandos and mall ninjas. Who says you'll get to fire all seven rounds from that first magazine or that the gun itself won't puke? Who says you'll only be facing one guy? Who says even that one guy will be "satisfied" with the seven, eight or even fifteen rounds? I can go on but the point is I agree, you can never have too much ammunition unless you are on fire or trying to swim. I carry as many magazines as is practical.

flintknapper · Post by **flintknapper** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:19 pm

G.C.Montgomery wrote:
rodnocker1 wrote:Over on the 1911forum.com site, someone posed a question about "how many mags do you carry?". It seems like the general concensus was that if you can't get the problem contained with just 7 shots (1 mag), you had no business carrying a weapon. Personally, I think that you can never have enough. If the situation can be neutralized in 1 round or 1 mag, then "Great!", leave the other mags holstered. My daily CCW is an XD45 with 14 rnds of 230 gr. HP in the gun and 2 spare mags. If that isn't enough, then hopefully one of my fellow CHL Brothers or Sisters (or an LEO) will be there to take over where I leave off.
I've gotten tired of that kind of machismo from keyboard/gunstore commandos and mall ninjas. Who says you'll get to fire all seven rounds from that first magazine or that the gun itself won't puke? Who says you'll only be facing one guy? Who says even that one guy will be "satisfied" with the seven, eight or even fifteen rounds? I can go on but the point is I agree, you can never have too much ammunition unless you are on fire or trying to swim. I carry as many magazines as is practical.

Yup!

23 years ago Col. Cooper told our class something I have never forgotten, he said in a very "listen to me" kind of tone: "One mag. is no mag., two mags. are one mag."

His meaning of course, was that if one magazine should fail (for any reason), then you'd darn sure better have a spare one. He was quite adamant about this.

No, I don't carry spare hammer springs... or other things that are not likely to cause a problem. Yes, I am aware that anything mechanical can fail, so no need in going overboard. But, magazines are always a cause for concern (even the best ones), so make sure you have a spare.

MrDrummy · Post by **MrDrummy** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:23 pm

I've started feeling a little undergunned with my 14 rounds of .45-- 7 in the gun, 7 in one spare magazine. I'd like to hope that I could hit what I was aiming for with 14 shots, if need be, but yeah, you never know what you're up against.

Looks like it's time for a double mag holder.

As far as that video goes, I guess I can't really seem to make out what's going on. Anyone want to kind of do a play by play?

Liberty · Post by **Liberty** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:27 pm

MrDrummy wrote:I've started feeling a little undergunned with my 14 rounds of .45-- 7 in the gun, 7 in one spare magazine. I'd like to hope that I could hit what I was aiming for with 14 shots, if need be, but yeah, you never know what you're up against.

Looks like it's time for a double mag holder.

As far as that video goes, I guess I can't really seem to make out what's going on. Anyone want to kind of do a play by play?

Doesn't that gun hold 8?

rodnocker1 · Post by **rodnocker1** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:35 pm

Oh yeah, Cocked and Locked!

G.C.Montgomery · Post by **G.C.Montgomery** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:43 pm

flintknapper wrote:Yup!

23 years ago Col. Cooper told our class something I have never forgotten, he said in a very "listen to me" kind of tone: "One mag. is no mag., two mags. are one mag."

His meaning of course, was that if one magazine should fail (for any reason), then you'd darn sure better have a spare one. He was quite adamant about this.

No, I don't carry spare hammer springs... or other things that are not likely to cause a problem. Yes, I am aware that anything mechanical can fail, so no need in going overboard. But, magazines are always a cause for concern (even the best ones), so make sure you have a spare.

I never trained with Cooper (too young) but what drove the point of spare magazines home for me was having a magazine catastrophically fail when I randomly decided to participate in a weekly match several years ago. I'd shown up wearing my trusty Gen2 Glock 19 with one spare magazine when friends pressured me into shooting the match since I was there. We ran a hot range back then so I was ready to go when I stepped off the street.

Long story short...Buzzer goes off, I turn, draw and engage like nobody's business. But on round number five, the magazine floor plate departed for parts unknown and the remaining ten rounds in the magazine hit the floor instantly. Fortunately, I had a spare magazine, was able to reduce the stoppage and finished the course of fire. Had that been a gunfight in front of the 59 Gun Range, I'd have been in deep trouble and no spare magazine would have put me at a severe disadvantage.

Greybeard · Post by **Greybeard** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 6:27 pm

' not sure how long it'll stay at top of page, but a video here of interview with upstairs witness:

http://kutv.com/video/?id=23425@kutv.dayport.com
and another (including Officer Hammond):
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=af4dc_4407

MrDrummy · Post by **MrDrummy** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:50 am

Liberty wrote: Doesn't that gun hold 8?

Only 7 in the mag, but....

Oh....yeah. Bad habit of mine.

I for some reason, usually only load the seven in the mag, and cock it, lock it and go on my way. Guess I need to cock, lock, eject the magazine, load an extra round, and slam it back in.

I've started thinking about carrying 8 round magazines as backups, too. They're ugly sticking out of the bottom of the pistol, but heck, an extra round is definitely worth it.

G.C.Montgomery · Post by **G.C.Montgomery** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:35 am

MrDrummy wrote:
Liberty wrote: Doesn't that gun hold 8?
Only 7 in the mag, but....

Oh....yeah. Bad habit of mine.

I for some reason, usually only load the seven in the mag, and cock it, lock it and go on my way. Guess I need to cock, lock, eject the magazine, load an extra round, and slam it back in.

I've started thinking about carrying 8 round magazines as backups, too. They're ugly sticking out of the bottom of the pistol, but heck, an extra round is definitely worth it.

An administrative top-off is highly recommended. One word of caution on the 8 round magazines on short 1911's: When the magazine extends below the bottom of the grip it is possible to over insert such a magazine, particularly when the slide is locked to the rear. Take care to choose magazines with a robust stop built into the body but be aware it is still possible to over insert those magazines.

TX Rancher · Post by **TX Rancher** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 10:46 am

G.C.Montgomery wrote: An administrative top-off is highly recommended. One word of caution on the 8 round magazines on short 1911's: When the magazine extends below the bottom of the grip it is possible to over insert such a magazine, particularly when the slide is locked to the rear. Take care to choose magazines with a robust stop built into the body but be aware it is still possible to over insert those magazines.

Something to remember is if you're in a situation where you're reloading for real, you'll hit that magazine base pretty hard (it's amazing what being pumped full of adrenaline does to motor control!). A suggestion is to hit it just as hard during practice to see if your gun/mag combo is good to go. The time to find out it's not isn't in the middle of a gunfight. Tap and rack isn't going to clear this problem...

Roger Howard · Post by **Roger Howard** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:04 am

It's confirmed the mall in question is posted for no CCW just like Katy Mills. A ghostbuster works there. I wonder if any lawsuits against the mall owners will come??

The only thing that sign stopped was CCW by the legal gun owners.

Venus Pax · Post by **Venus Pax** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:05 pm

Normally, I'm not into lawsuits, but I hope a victim sues the mall & wins in this case. People should have the right to defend themselves.