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MechAg94 wrote:I thought the DPS used the P220. Maybe that was someone else.

I believe they went from .357 to 220 in 45 then to the 357 sig

WildBill wrote:

Pecos wrote:Really I think 9MM .40 & .45 are all good calibers.
I wouldnt think the DPS Troopers would go to 9mm just to save money when there lives are on the line. But stranger thing have happened, maybe that IS the only reasing there switching.

What is the reason for DPS going to .357Sig in the first place?

It's not like they made an announcement and said "This is why we changed to..." but the buzz around this and other depts switching to the 357 sig was accuracy and penetration. The .357 sig just plain shoots harder than any 9mm and more accurate than a 40. It had better penetration of glass and car doors than 9, 40 or 45 and still stays within a body when you hit the target.The idea that either the 357 sig or the 40 is going anywhere is just silly and based on peoples personal prejudices not any sort of reality.

And another thing the 357 sig cost the same to reload as the 9 and less than the 40. In a dept the size of TDPS I would bet they have enough purchasing power to make the cost surprisingly reasonable.

. It had better penetration of glass and car doors than 9, 40 or 45 and still stays within a body when you hit the target.

I think this is what made it interesting to LEO. Limited data I've seen suggest that its "ability to stop bad guys" is pretty good.

When I was at last renewal school in 2009, there was talk back then of letting at least some officers go to a 9mm where it was better suited to their personal circumstances than the harsh recoiling 357 Sig. They had been testing the semi-new-at-the-time Federal HST ammo and were impressed with its performance in 9mm.

The Annoyed Man wrote:

longdog wrote:I remember years ago when many departments went to 9mm from revolvers because of the higher capacity. After several years, many of those then changed to 40,357 sig or 45 after finding 9mm "inadequate". Are the newer rounds that much better or are we looking at another trend brought about by commercial hype?

9mm hardball pokes pencil sized holes into people, and early 9mm hollowpoints........Winchester Silvertips, for instance...... would fail to expand properly either because of bullet failure or because of obstacles like windshields and heavy clothing, etc. The hollowpoints ended up behaving much like hardball. In fact, I believe that overpenetration was an early problem for that reason. But bullet design has come a long way in the last 35-40 years, and 9mm performs much better than it used to.

Gun-Tests Magazine has an interesting article in this month's issue about 9mm choices for short-barreled carry pistols: http://www.gun-tests.com/issues/25_10/f ... 087-1.html (subscription required to read whole thing.) They gave their highest score to the Speer 124 Grain +P Gold Dot, saying:

Speer Gold Dot 124-grain +P Short Barrel JHP 23611, $22.49/20 (Midway 216634)

The current ammunition shortage almost prevented this load from appearing in these pages. Most of the others were on hand. The Speer load was difficult to obtain, but then everything is at present. The Gold Dot design is tweaked for extra performance in the short-barrel gun. The +P rating increases velocity over the standard Gold Dot, and the bullet features a softer core. Expansion and penetration were excellent. This is a solid choice for all-around use. Expansion is the greatest of any load tested, and accuracy was excellent.

Our Team Said: This load is specifically intended for short-barrel use, and as a result of careful development and quality manufacture, it was the overall pick of our raters.

Gun Tests Grade: A+

Good to know! I have a mix of Hornadys and Speer Gold Dots (non +P). When theings mellow out a little more, will try this round in comparison for the M&Pc.

The department I used to work for went to 357 SIG in the aftermath of DPS making that move. It was a dumb choice. Two years later, we begged our way back to personally owned weapons. The overall qualification scores dropped, and one officer had to go through remedial on the first day of qualification with the new guns. He was previously a great shot with his personal Sig. Their big thing was it could shoot through car doors. Our argument was we'd be doing good to even hit a car door. The only ones who kept the department guns when we went back to personal weapons were the admin people.

gigag04 wrote:"Stopping power" - love this terminology.

Whatever caliber I carry, I also give the rounds a good sprinkling of magic fairy dust and a store them near the pelt of maiden unicorn. 45 or 9 make a far superior choice for a duty or defensive round.

...and I thought I was the only one that did this!!

The 9mm is a perfectly deadly round. There are ballistic gel tests showing the penetration depth of a 9 JHP round is appx the same as a JHP.45 with an even larger wound channel due to a 9s' greater tendancy to roll end to end. There are other poitive considerations such as a typical increase in the number of available rounds vs. pistol size, carry weight, and faster target acquisition recovery time to name a few. Also, the 9mm has been satisfactorily stopping threats for shooters for over 100 years. Shooters would have been abandoned it years ago if this was not the case.

I Keep a Beretta M9 16 round shooter as my home protection piece. I figure if Im going to have to go to war with an invading threat I want a "go to war gun" with the ability to put a lot of weight down range accurately and in in a hurry. My 7 round 1911 does not give me this same ability. Minor differences, if any, in stopping power vs. other caliber choices is not a big consideration for me in this type of situation. The 9mm is plenty deadly.

Spoke to a buddy of mine on Fort Worth PD. He actually laughed when I asked him about this. He said they went to the 40 for a reason and have ZERO plans to switch to anything else.

Dirthawking wrote:Spoke to a buddy of mine on Fort Worth PD. He actually laughed when I asked him about this. He said they went to the 40 for a reason and have ZERO plans to switch to anything else.

Dirthawking wrote:Spoke to a buddy of mine on Fort Worth PD. He actually laughed when I asked him about this. He said they went to the 40 for a reason and have ZERO plans to switch to anything else.

A friend of mine who was with FWPD hates that caliber. He got into a shooting and the bullets were fragmenting on everything. He said all he did was pepper the guy with lead. But then again, this is FWPD we're talking about. One of their officers shot a guy I worked with after he'd identified himself as a detective.

Chris wrote:

Dirthawking wrote:Spoke to a buddy of mine on Fort Worth PD. He actually laughed when I asked him about this. He said they went to the 40 for a reason and have ZERO plans to switch to anything else.

A friend of mine who was with FWPD hates that caliber. He got into a shooting and the bullets were fragmenting on everything. He said all he did was pepper the guy with lead. But then again, this is FWPD we're talking about. One of their officers shot a guy I worked with after he'd identified himself as a detective.

Chris wrote:

Dirthawking wrote:Spoke to a buddy of mine on Fort Worth PD. He actually laughed when I asked him about this. He said they went to the 40 for a reason and have ZERO plans to switch to anything else.

A friend of mine who was with FWPD hates that caliber. He got into a shooting and the bullets were fragmenting on everything. He said all he did was pepper the guy with lead. But then again, this is FWPD we're talking about. One of their officers shot a guy I worked with after he'd identified himself as a detective.

It sounds like your friend was missing the target because the rounds fragment on impact.