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CHL/LEO wrote:Depends upon the totality of the circumstances

I see what you mean there...But I believe it would be difficult to determine the totality of circumstances in the heat of the moment...

But it is something to seriously consider if you are able to do so...

I have been sprayed numerous times by OC spray. There was the obligatory certification spraying where you are blasted directly in the face and then must draw your weapon and arrest your suspect while holding your eye open with your weak hand.

Thats a test I would not like to take...Lets say I did, and leave it at that, K?

Then there have been the times when we were fighting with suspects we were attempting to arrest and everyone is rolling around on the ground. A responding officers decides to spray the suspect and ends up hitting everyone involved. It seems to always happen just about the time we've finally gotten the suspect's hands under control and have one cuff on - then all heck breaks loose.

Guess who would be buying lunch for a while in that case!

That being said it would down to whether or not an officer was in fear of his life by being sprayed with OC. If the suspect sprayed you and then ran away you wouldn't have a reason to use deadly force.

Exactly! And given that side note, you betcha you better determine that before ever considering discharging your weapon...This was another thing I was getting at...

Now if they sprayed you, and then starting fighting with you, the LEO would have no problem in articulating how they had to use deadly force because they were afraid that the suspect would gain control of their weapon and use it on them or other bystanders. Again, you always have to weigh in the totality of the circumstances and then be able to properly articulate why you took the action you did.

And in a scuffle, that would be the only time someone could find out you have a weapon on you...If they made moves for it, then that immediately, in my opinion, escalates to an immediate determination that sufficient force is needed to keep the unauthorized use of that weapon from happening...

One of my CHL instructors told our class that once they display OR inform someone that they have a handgun, if that person then makes an attempt to disarm them or even tells them that he is going to take their gun away from them and then moves toward them, they have the right to use deadly force. I'm guessing that if they knew you had a gun, and then sprayed you anyway, the circumstances would be pretty to similar to what I outlined above regarding a LEO.

Yep!

But none of my instructors have ever told me that...It would make for an interesting discussion though...

In the event that I was sprayed with OC and the circumstances were such that my attacker knew I was armed, and my attacker attempted to physically escalate the assault, I would use deadly force. Because of previous experience with OC I know that I would be unable to see within a short period of time and my primary fear would be that my attacker would take my weapon. As one of the previous posters said it also depends on the totality of the circumstances. Granny with a can of OC spray whacking me on the head with a cane won’t exactly cause me to fear for my life.

Stupid and irresponsible stunts like these are exactly why a lot of people don't believe college students should be allowed to carry concealed handguns on campus.

But I believe it would be difficult to determine the totality of circumstances in the heat of the moment...

I would hope that you would be able to do that before you felt the need to use deadly force. I know that you can never prepare for every single event but you need to think through as many "what if" scenarios as you can. That's what's good about a forum like this - people can present different situations and talk about how they would respond.

In LE we set aside hours and hours of this type of training, and then of course it continues through every officer's career as they share experiences of what has happened to them. The main difference for us is that when we're going through all of this "what if" training we usually have attorneys or case history present to validate the end result of the action taken. Also we are provided with written procedures that are presented to us by the attorneys that will be representing us in case we do get involved in a shooting or deadly force confrontation.

I'm not sure that that same level of advice and expertise is available on this forum, or anywhere for that matter, but it's still a good idea to share ideas on here. In case somebody is way out in right field with how they would respond to a situation then some of the other members might be able to provide some advice to reel them back in. And trust me, I've heard some strange things brought up in CHL classes regarding how someone would respond with deadly force, so we're fortunate to have quite a few CHL Instructors on here to share their advice.

CHL/LEO wrote:

But I believe it would be difficult to determine the totality of circumstances in the heat of the moment...

I would hope that you would be able to do that before you felt the need to use deadly force. I know that you can never prepare for every single event but you need to think through as many "what if" scenarios as you can. That's what's good about a forum like this - people can present different situations and talk about how they would respond.

I agree...I only said it would be difficult to determine, not impossible...

I was intending on this developing into a "could it be presumed you made a reasonable attempt" to determine as you say "totality of circumstances" given the challenge of dealing with the incapacitating effects of an unprepared for attack on yourself with this substance???

I have no doubt Law Enforcement folks work on this and talk shop about what you can and cannot do depending on certan factors...Thats y'alls job...And you deal with it much better and with much more preparation than the average citizen, much less someone like myself...

I am absolutely not a "shoot first, take the ride later" armed citizen...Some may argue, but thats ok... I deserve it...

This is just an issue that I have never given much thought about because I have only worked it out in my mind about how I would react to weapons presented to me in a threatening manner (i.e.: knives, pistols, fists) and multiple assailants...Never a chemical agent used against me in this case...

It actually does cause me to think a little more about the whole concept, yet I know I can classify this as a threat that even though its implementation (by itself) is non-lethal, it is apparent that the use is intended to give ease to do "other" things which may be lethal...

And I believe determining that fact had better take less time than it did for me to type this drivle out, right???

I also believe this issue is serious enough to warrant a lot of discussion from all sides of our community...

So far, I'm satisfied...Not totally sold on the idea, but believe it needs to be flogged into total submission eventually...

My only reservation is that I do not believe this happens very much to non-LEO folks...I stand to be corrected of course if I am wrong...

CHL/LEO wrote:There was the obligatory certification spraying where you are blasted directly in the face and then must draw your weapon and arrest your suspect while holding your eye open with your weak hand.

Just great. Now he's giving GlockenHammer ideas for an IDPA CoF that I don't even want to think about...

Just great. Now he's giving GlockenHammer ideas for an IDPA CoF that I don't even want to think about... Wink

There is a mint scented practice spray for OC classes that could be used for the CoF.

And you deal with it much better and with much more preparation than the average citizen, much less someone like myself...

Don't give LEOs too much credit in this area and for sure don't short change the average citizen. A lot of this is based upon common sense (which is unfortunately not so common anymore) and I've found that CHL holders as a whole have lots of common sense and innate abilities toward doing the right thing. It seems sometimes that LEOs get so caught up in regulatory policies and regulations, or departmental procedures that they just can't make a sound decision. Our department has had officers fail to use the necessary amount of force that they could have legally used because they were so afraid of having to deal with IAD. Not only could someone get hurt but lives could be lost because of that type thinking.

If our criminal and civil justice systems were the same as they were fifty years ago citizens wouldn't have to worry much about how those issues would impact your decision to use deadly force. You'd just do the right thing and go about your business.

Maybe they can start a forum on here that deals specifically with situations that can be posed and people can respond back with opinions. CHL Instructors, LEOs and attorneys could relate specific advice that might provide helpful.

In our department we have specific training called "Situation Simulation" which places officers in an environment so that their responses to various scenarios can be observed and critiqued. Everyone learns something from this method.

Lots of people on here will go to the range and fire hundreds of training rounds to help prepare them in case they ever have to use their weapon. Like I mentioned on a previous post, do the same with your mind - role play what ifs (kind of like how you prepare in case you ever have a weapon or ammo malfunction) with your family. Officers do this (or should do this) with their partners all the time regarding what would happen in certain situations.

Just my 2¢ worth...

Skiprr wrote:

CHL/LEO wrote:There was the obligatory certification spraying where you are blasted directly in the face and then must draw your weapon and arrest your suspect while holding your eye open with your weak hand.

Just great. Now he's giving GlockenHammer ideas for an IDPA CoF that I don't even want to think about...

"Spray or no spray, that is the question..."

Ok, so the levity lamp is lit again...Geesh...

One of these days my Dad is going to post something, and its probably going to be "Shut up Steve!"

Lots of people on here will go to the range and fire hundreds of training rounds to help prepare them in case they ever have to use their weapon. Like I mentioned on a previous post, do the same with your mind - role play what ifs (kind of like how you prepare in case you ever have a weapon or ammo malfunction) with your family. Officers do this (or should do this) with their partners all the time regarding what would happen in certain situations.

You got that right on the whole developing the mindset idea...All the shooting in the world may make you an extremely proficient marksman...

But I'll take a person who is a mediocre marksman with a good head on their shoulders who "thinks" well ahead of any shot they may, or may not have to take...

Maybe not "mediocre"..."Good" would be better...I know a few of those...

Back to the original poster's question (prior to becoming a use of force discussion):

I would treat with Normal Saline run onto the eyes and face for the as long as possible and treat any respiratory symptoms as they present.

As an addition I like to explain that if they had complied to the LEO's orders we would all be a happier now as I would be in bed and the would not be blubbering like a baby!

Given the option I would use a mild soap or baby shampoo after a short period of rinse and then continue to rinse.

http://s178.photobucket.com/albums/w257 ... prayed.flv

Found this video on The High Road, hopefully you can save yourself some grief.

I'm surprised by the lack of coughing and sneezing. Don't know what type of spray it was but other than his vision being effected, he sure doesn't seem to have many other problems.

Although there is nothing like seeing someone sprayed (multiple times) and it have NO effect on him at all. All of us were coughing, sneezing and tearing up and you'd think all we did was squirt some water in his face.

The Taser worked though.

I've made a call with a man having 2 full cans of Fox OC used and 14 pepper ball hits that I counted and it had NO effect on him. It did on those of use in the confined space with him later though.

txinvestigator wrote:I'll just say this. Unless you are OC certified you cannot even explain what level of force OC is. Hearsay is not sufficient. If you are not certified you have no idea how it will effect you.

So, if you haven't been shot, strangled, stabbed, etc., how can you claim to know what level of force those comprise?

I'm not OC certified, but I have a lot more than an idea of how it will affect me. I now prefer canisters with strong safety devices now. The indirect shot put me on the ground and effectively blind for several minutes. The fact that I now wear contacts instead of glasses means I will likely be effectively blind until I can wash throughly and get to my spare glasses.

OC tip #1: Don't put your OC/CS mix where you can knock it off the desk and step on it. If you do step on it and it's hissing, don't pick it up to see why.

OC tip #2: Check the wind before testing a new canister for pattern and range.