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jmra wrote:

mojo84 wrote:I understand. When our guys did it, there were very few teachers, some administrators and the only kids were from the local explorer post my son is in.

That sounds like a much better plan.

What's the difference with Explorer kids and high school kids that volunteer? Nothing.

jmra wrote:

CHLLady wrote:I think it's a fantastic idea, as long as everyone participating knew it was a drill in adavance. I believe this is good for the students to hear what gun shots sound like in a school environment, so that they KNOW what they're hearing if it does happen. Too many times people freeze and try and rationalize what they thought they heard, some say firecrackers, a desk dropping, etc. People come up with weird ideas. If this can get them to react faster instead of freezing, then why not? In this training, they can use it in other situations such as movie theater or the mall. They are not going to be traumatized, they've seen worse in scary movies or on The Walking Dead, or in their video games.

I believe in teaching my kids about school safety and what to do in case... We've discussed this often. Kids need this training. Not all parents teach or expose their kids to gun safety & shooting, as most of us have taught our own. Our kids know what gun shots sound like. It's always better to be prepared.

I totally disagree. First of all the "guns" used in the video sound nothing like real guns. Secondly, getting a school full of kids, 750 in my case, to take any kind of drill seriously is next to impossible. Thirdly, there is absolutely no way you are going to get 10% of the parents to consent to allowing their kids to participate in this type of drill which negates any possibility of the general school population benefiting from the drill. Lastly, like I stated previously, some teenagers would take from this experience that their only chance of surviving an actual experience would be to carry "protection".
There is absolutely nothing to be gained in having children participate in a drill where they all die. In fact the drill is likely to make them panic more in a real event. Involving children on any large scale is just a bad idea.

Have you ever been a firearms instructor or trainer? Have you ever participated in a live fire drill? Unless you have been involved, then you don't understand the fact of how these drills show vulnerabilities and that you can't freeze when you are involved, even if that means ducking for cover. These kids that volunteered to participate will now know that when they hear this to grab their friends and head for any cover they can find. Kids are a lot smarter and logical than many people give them credit for. They will run this through their heads and look for creative ways to seek cover and get out of harms way. Is is something all kids should engage in? Probably not, but those that are willing and able should. No different than those who are old enough to get our CHL and learn the proper way to carry and protect ourselves, even if that means we are outgunned and end up running for the hills.

Keith B wrote:

jmra wrote:

mojo84 wrote:I understand. When our guys did it, there were very few teachers, some administrators and the only kids were from the local explorer post my son is in.

That sounds like a much better plan.

What's the difference with Explorer kids and high school kids that volunteer? Nothing.

I would have opted to not have any kids, but if it was absolutely necessary for the drill at least the explorer kids are interested in a career in law enforcement.

jmra wrote:

Keith B wrote:

jmra wrote:

mojo84 wrote:I understand. When our guys did it, there were very few teachers, some administrators and the only kids were from the local explorer post my son is in.

That sounds like a much better plan.

What's the difference with Explorer kids and high school kids that volunteer? Nothing.

I would have opted to not have any kids, but if it was absolutely necessary for the drill at least the explorer kids are interested in a career in law enforcement.

Who said it was a law enforcement explorer post? I know that it is, but who is to say these kids that volunteered aren't interested in law enforcement too?

Keith B wrote:

jmra wrote:

CHLLady wrote:I think it's a fantastic idea, as long as everyone participating knew it was a drill in adavance. I believe this is good for the students to hear what gun shots sound like in a school environment, so that they KNOW what they're hearing if it does happen. Too many times people freeze and try and rationalize what they thought they heard, some say firecrackers, a desk dropping, etc. People come up with weird ideas. If this can get them to react faster instead of freezing, then why not? In this training, they can use it in other situations such as movie theater or the mall. They are not going to be traumatized, they've seen worse in scary movies or on The Walking Dead, or in their video games.

I believe in teaching my kids about school safety and what to do in case... We've discussed this often. Kids need this training. Not all parents teach or expose their kids to gun safety & shooting, as most of us have taught our own. Our kids know what gun shots sound like. It's always better to be prepared.

I totally disagree. First of all the "guns" used in the video sound nothing like real guns. Secondly, getting a school full of kids, 750 in my case, to take any kind of drill seriously is next to impossible. Thirdly, there is absolutely no way you are going to get 10% of the parents to consent to allowing their kids to participate in this type of drill which negates any possibility of the general school population benefiting from the drill. Lastly, like I stated previously, some teenagers would take from this experience that their only chance of surviving an actual experience would be to carry "protection".
There is absolutely nothing to be gained in having children participate in a drill where they all die. In fact the drill is likely to make them panic more in a real event. Involving children on any large scale is just a bad idea.

Have you ever been a firearms instructor or trainer? Have you ever participated in a live fire drill? Unless you have been involved, then you don't understand the fact of how these drills show vulnerabilities and that you can't freeze when you are involved, even if that means ducking for cover. These kids that volunteered to participate will now know that when they hear this to grab their friends and head for any cover they can find. Kids are a lot smarter and logical than many people give them credit for. They will run this through their heads and look for creative ways to seek cover and get out of harms way. Is is something all kids should engage in? Probably not, but those that are willing and able should. No different than those who are old enough to get our CHL and learn the proper way to carry and protect ourselves, even if that means we are outgunned and end up running for the hills.

No and yes. (I don't really understand what being a firearms instructor has to do with the discussion. But I have been involved with live fire drills both in the military and civilian life.)
I work with kids everyday both gen ed and special ed. I believe I have a pretty good understanding of how the teenager mind works.
I never questioned the value of these drills from an administration or first responder standpoint. I strongly question the involvement of children. But that is simply my opinion based on my years of experience in working with children. IMHO, the downside is much greater than the upside. Of course my kids don't play video games where the object of the game is to shoot people either, so maybe I'm just overprotective.

Keith B wrote:

jmra wrote:

Keith B wrote:

jmra wrote:

mojo84 wrote:I understand. When our guys did it, there were very few teachers, some administrators and the only kids were from the local explorer post my son is in.

That sounds like a much better plan.

What's the difference with Explorer kids and high school kids that volunteer? Nothing.

I would have opted to not have any kids, but if it was absolutely necessary for the drill at least the explorer kids are interested in a career in law enforcement.

Who said it was a law enforcement explorer post? I know that it is, but who is to say these kids that volunteered aren't interested in law enforcement too?

I thought it was pretty obvious that it was a law enforcement explorer post. Perhaps that was too much of an assumption on my part.
As I stated previously, my preference would be to exclude children from the drill altogether, however it has been my experience that kids involved in a law enforcement based explorer program tend to be somewhat more mature than the general school population.

jmra wrote: No and yes. (I don't really understand what being a firearms instructor has to do with the discussion. But I have been involved with live fire drills both in the military and civilian life.)
I work with kids everyday both gen ed and special ed. I believe I have a pretty good understanding of how the teenager mind works.
I never questioned the value of these drills from an administration or first responder standpoint. I strongly question the involvement of children. But that is simply my opinion based on my years of experience in working with children. IMHO, the downside is much greater than the upside. Of course my kids don't play video games where the object of the game is to shoot people either, so maybe I'm just overprotective.

Being an instructor plays into it because of the way you would introduce the drill and explain it to the teens and other participants. Many times how you go approach a drill or tactic training will prepare and set the understanding of the participants as to the kind of thing they will be facing.

And, while I agree this should not be an across the board type of activity, I think any high school teen that wants to participate, and their parents sign the release, should be involved. They have interest and they can see what it's all about. And letting kids play active shooter video games is fine, as long as they have an understanding of what is real, what is fantasy and where the lines really exist. Some kids are much more mature than others and each one has to be allowed to do things at the maturity level that are at within reason.)

I think it is absolutely to train the kids as much as the teaching staff. Many of them, kids and staff, said that the first time they did this they froze a bit. Now, they know more about what to do. If anything, God forbid, does happen some of the students that have not taken part in anything like this will freeze, but maybe they will follow other students that do not freeze or are dragged to safety or a good hiding place. If they do this every year or every other year there will, hopefully, be enough kids that don't freeze and more will survive an event like this.

Even reading about this it was tough to not react emotionally and I failed. It is hard to think about the possibility of an event like this at my own daughters' school. I don't know how I would really react in a real event if I happened to be at the school when something like this began. However, I am in the medical field and have worked in a nursing department and ER before and know what it is like to shut off my emotions and do my job and what needs to be done.

Keith B wrote:

jmra wrote: No and yes. (I don't really understand what being a firearms instructor has to do with the discussion. But I have been involved with live fire drills both in the military and civilian life.)
I work with kids everyday both gen ed and special ed. I believe I have a pretty good understanding of how the teenager mind works.
I never questioned the value of these drills from an administration or first responder standpoint. I strongly question the involvement of children. But that is simply my opinion based on my years of experience in working with children. IMHO, the downside is much greater than the upside. Of course my kids don't play video games where the object of the game is to shoot people either, so maybe I'm just overprotective.

Being an instructor plays into it because of the way you would introduce the drill and explain it to the teens and other participants. Many times how you go approach a drill or tactic training will prepare and set the understanding of the participants as to the kind of thing they will be facing.

And, while I agree this should not be an across the board type of activity, I think any high school teen that wants to participate, and their parents sign the release, should be involved. They have interest and they can see what it's all about. And letting kids play active shooter video games is fine, as long as they have an understanding of what is real, what is fantasy and where the lines really exist. Some kids are much more mature than others and each one has to be allowed to do things at the maturity level that are at within reason.)

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I don't let my kids kill people in video games but they do shoot at B27 targets when I take them shooting and they kill real animals when I take them hunting.
We have had numerous discussions about what to do and not to do in an active shooter situation to the point of walking them through every square inch of their respective campuses (easy to do when you have keys and after school access) and throwing them "curve balls" in the process. I have complete confidence in their ability to respond in such an event. At no point in that process did I feel it necessary to introduce air soft guns and fake blood. Nor did I feel it necessary to have someone point a gun at them (fake or not).

Just to clarify, I introduced the Explorer post kids when discussing the drill because that was who our local LEO used in our drill. I have no problem with kids volunteering to participate. I do not agree that a drill such as this should be conducted during school hours with the entire student body as if it was a fire or tornado drill.

I also do not believe suing over something like this is warranted.

I agree we are at am impasse jmra, but that is OK. I am like mojo84 and do agree this level of drill should not be done wiht whole student body during school hours. Some kids would not faare well mentally from the drill. Using Explorers from a LEO post or high school kids who want to volunteer with their parents permission (as they did in this case) I see as fine. If the kid or parent doesn't want them to participate, they don't have to.

I participated in a realistic tornado drill when I was in Jr. High school. They bandaged about 100 of us and sent us to the two local hospitals. I had a piece of sheet metal protruding from my side. When I got to the hospital I was to be in shock and unable to speak. The Dr. kept asking me what was wrong with me instead of reading the tag. I finally had to point to the tag to show him I was unable to speak due to severe shock. He looked kinda put out, looked at the location of the metal and said 'Well, that is into his spleen and he's not gonna make it'. I said 'Well, gee, thanks for nothing Doc!' and he just walked off. What it did though was enlighten me to the fact that you may not be able to survive after an incident for various reasons and you need to look for ways ot protect yourself because others may not be willing or able to. I think that is what this active shooter drill there did for many of those kids that participated. In my drill, I did at least make the front page of the local newspaper though.

Done with this thread now.

Keith B wrote:I agree we are at am impasse jmra, but that is OK. I am like mojo84 and do agree this level of drill should not be done wiht whole student body during school hours. Some kids would not faare well mentally from the drill. Using Explorers from a LEO post or high school kids who want to volunteer with their parents permission (as they did in this case) I see as fine. If the kid or parent doesn't want them to participate, they don't have to.

I participated in a realistic tornado drill when I was in Jr. High school. They bandaged about 100 of us and sent us to the two local hospitals. I had a piece of sheet metal protruding from my side. When I got to the hospital I was to be in shock and unable to speak. The Dr. kept asking me what was wrong with me instead of reading the tag. I finally had to point to the tag to show him I was unable to speak due to severe shock. He looked kinda put out, looked at the location of the metal and said 'Well, that is into his spleen and he's not gonna make it'. I said 'Well, gee, thanks for nothing Doc!' and he just walked off. What it did though was enlighten me to the fact that you may not be able to survive after an incident for various reasons and you need to look for ways ot protect yourself because others may not be willing or able to. I think that is what this active shooter drill there did for many of those kids that participated. In my drill, I did at least make the front page of the local newspaper though.

Done with this thread now.

I understand where you're coming from and agree that there are some kids mature enough to participate. I don't think we are that far apart in our thinking.

We had fire drills when I was in school but they didn't use smoke machines, fire, or tell some kids to pretend to panic.

Keith B wrote:I participated in a realistic tornado drill when I was in Jr. High school. They bandaged about 100 of us and sent us to the two local hospitals. I had a piece of sheet metal protruding from my side. When I got to the hospital I was to be in shock and unable to speak. The Dr. kept asking me what was wrong with me instead of reading the tag. I finally had to point to the tag to show him I was unable to speak due to severe shock. He looked kinda put out, looked at the location of the metal and said 'Well, that is into his spleen and he's not gonna make it'. I said 'Well, gee, thanks for nothing Doc!' and he just walked off.

Sorry Keith, but this is hilarious.

WildBill wrote:

Keith B wrote:I participated in a realistic tornado drill when I was in Jr. High school. They bandaged about 100 of us and sent us to the two local hospitals. I had a piece of sheet metal protruding from my side. When I got to the hospital I was to be in shock and unable to speak. The Dr. kept asking me what was wrong with me instead of reading the tag. I finally had to point to the tag to show him I was unable to speak due to severe shock. He looked kinda put out, looked at the location of the metal and said 'Well, that is into his spleen and he's not gonna make it'. I said 'Well, gee, thanks for nothing Doc!' and he just walked off.

Sorry Keith, but this is hilarious.

The other thing was I knew the Doctor very well and thought at least he would have given a little extra effort to save me.