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I own my own business and really do not have a problem servicing to other factions of life. In the grand scheme of things, its a job. Nothing more, and nothing less. It doesn't mean I have to agree with their lifestyle, religion, or anything else that is different from me.

The only thing I ask is that there is someone at the location that speaks English. I should not be required to supply a translator to ride with a technician on a call. I am thinking about adding a recording to my phone system that says press 1 for English or press 2 to be transferred to Rosetta Stone.

There is a group of people that ALWAYS tries to negotiate a lower price AFTER the work is quoted and done. It makes me wish I didn't have to deal with them only because of this.

I try to be even-minded about these things. I often put myself in the situation to see how it would effect me.

I am LDS. There are lots of people out there who just plain do not like Mormons. When my wife and I were planning to get married back in 2006, if we had walked into a cake place or florist shop and they found out that we were LDS and did not want to participate in our plans... how would I react, what would I do?

I though long and hard about that... and I came to the conclusion that I would just blow them off and head right down the street to their competitors. Would I be less than happy at those folks? Sure. Would I feel like I had been unfairly judged and maybe discriminated against? Probably. Would I hire a lawyer and sue the crap out of them, would I contact the local news station and cry and whine? No. Would I start a facebook campaign to have hate mail and threatening phone calls made to their office? Absolutely not.

But in the end, my wife and I would still be married, we would be happy to choose a shop that is happy for us as a couple and willing to work with us, and everyone would go on their merry way.

In the mean time, if I heard of another LDS couple looking for those services, I would certainly tell them where to go and where not to go. It would quickly become common knowledge in our sub-community. The shop who does not want Mormon business would be happy not to get it, and the shop who welcomed our business would be happy to get it. This is called "the free market".

I fail to see the problem with any of this... except for the folks who are trying to cram their lifestyle down our throats. THAT is the problem here.

Now, all of this would be much more challenging if I did not live in the sprawling metropolis of the DFW area. If I lived in a smaller town and there were only a few places available, and all of them turned me down, I might be a little more unhappy.

To directly answer the question that was asked: I sell group medical insurance. I would provide the exact same level of service to an employer who was gay, or to a company who had gay employees that I would to any one else. To me, the entire thing is a non-issue.

RPBrown wrote:I own my own business and really do not have a problem servicing to other factions of life. In the grand scheme of things, its a job. Nothing more, and nothing less. It doesn't mean I have to agree with their lifestyle, religion, or anything else that is different from me.

The only thing I ask is that there is someone at the location that speaks English. I should not be required to supply a translator to ride with a technician on a call. I am thinking about adding a recording to my phone system that says press 1 for English or press 2 to be transferred to Rosetta Stone.

There is a group of people that ALWAYS tries to negotiate a lower price AFTER the work is quoted and done. It makes me wish I didn't have to deal with them only because of this.

Oh really.... what "group" might that be? Can I take a guess?

K.Mooneyham wrote:I've been thinking about the whole "gay marriage cake" thing. I am not a baker, nor do I produce any other tangible product, I just want to put this out there as a hypothetical. My question, as in the title, is are you required to produce a quality product? That is, if you were forced to bake said cake or have the state and/or Feds come down on you, what if you simply made a really lousy cake? Not one that was harmful, just one that was poorly made and tasted bad, like a really dry cake? What could the consequences be, from a legal standpoint, from such an action?

EDITED TO ADD:

I ask this question because a former NYC Councilwoman said she would force businesses to serve those Westboro folks. What if they came in and wanted a "glad soldiers died" cake? They are some pretty nasty folks, IMO.

Short answer is no, based on my experience with businesses of all types. If there was a requirement to deliver a quality product about 80-90% of the businesses in this country would be breaking the law. Ultimately, the marketplace decides whether your product is good enough to keep you in business.

It's funny to read the comments from "progressives" about how businesses should respond to this stuff. Many of them say that the business owners should just keep their mouths shut about their beliefs if they want to save themselves some grief. Funny how they don't say that the customers should keep their mouths shut about their sexual preferences. When I buy a cake I don't say I want a cake for a heterosexual birthday, anniversary, or wedding, I just ask for a cake. The only reason for someone to specify that a cake is for a gay wedding is to attempt to make trouble for the business, be provocative, or try to create some pretense for exploiting someones beliefs. In essence, as TAM said, it's about "celebration." They're not seeking equal treatment under the law, they're seeking endorsement.

RoyGBiv wrote:Let me take a swipe at this from a different direction... 2A.

When I think of someone putting up a sign on their public business (Sprouts, Fresh Market, etc.) making it illegal for me to enter with my concealed weapon, my argument goes something like this..... While Sprouts is a private business, they are in the business of inviting in "the public" to purchase their wares. When a business is "open to the public" they are required to confirm to certain "public standards".... Handicap parking and accessible toilets, fire codes, food storage and safety codes, occupancy licensing and limits, etc, ad-infinitum. The act of engaging in a "public" business obligates the owner to many things. They cannot just decide "you know, this is a privately held business, and I don't want to have so many handicap parking spots".

In my opinion, the same is true for 2A. I'd make the argument that, despite "private property rights", when you open a business and solicit the public to come in to your store, the Second Amendment is pretty clear. ".... the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." When a business invites the public inside, they should be obligated to the Second Amendment, just as they are obligated to follow building codes. In fact, the Second is enumerated in the founding documents of our country, building codes are not. I'd say that trumps whatever logic (legal or otherwise) is used to justify building codes.

So..... IMO..... It would be rather hypocritical of me to feel this way about 2A, but differently about the topic of this thread. If my business is open to the public, I should provide equal accommodation to all who solicit service from me.

Except it's not really hypocritical, since businesses are not obligated to respect your rights, just the rights of officially designated protected groups. When yours and our rights are respected, and they won't be, then it would be hypocritical.

VMI77 wrote:

K.Mooneyham wrote:I've been thinking about the whole "gay marriage cake" thing. I am not a baker, nor do I produce any other tangible product, I just want to put this out there as a hypothetical. My question, as in the title, is are you required to produce a quality product? That is, if you were forced to bake said cake or have the state and/or Feds come down on you, what if you simply made a really lousy cake? Not one that was harmful, just one that was poorly made and tasted bad, like a really dry cake? What could the consequences be, from a legal standpoint, from such an action?

EDITED TO ADD:

I ask this question because a former NYC Councilwoman said she would force businesses to serve those Westboro folks. What if they came in and wanted a "glad soldiers died" cake? They are some pretty nasty folks, IMO.

Short answer is no, based on my experience with businesses of all types. If there was a requirement to deliver a quality product about 80-90% of the businesses in this country would be breaking the law. Ultimately, the marketplace decides whether your product is good enough to keep you in business.

It's funny to read the comments from "progressives" about how businesses should respond to this stuff. Many of them say that the business owners should just keep their mouths shut about their beliefs if they want to save themselves some grief. Funny how they don't say that the customers should keep their mouths shut about their sexual preferences. When I buy a cake I don't say I want a cake for a heterosexual birthday, anniversary, or wedding, I just ask for a cake. The only reason for someone to specify that a cake is for a gay wedding is to attempt to make trouble for the business, be provocative, or try to create some pretense for exploiting someones beliefs. In essence, as TAM said, it's about "celebration." They're not seeking equal treatment under the law, they're seeking endorsement.

Back in ancient times when we did our wedding cake, there were a whole list of questions about the cake, so I'm not getting where you're coming from on that.
Fortunately for me, the wife had hay fever so I had to perform all taste testing. In fact I had to test several things twice just to be sure.

The Annoyed Man wrote:

Keith B wrote:

rbwhatever1 wrote:

Keith B wrote: If someone comes in and you make a cake for them and put on it Congratulations Bob and Mary, then you must also be willing to the same for Bob and Larry.

What about Bob, Larry and Mary? We wont even discuss Mary, Lisa, Rover and Spot.

Sorry. Having too much fun going down this rabbit hole...

OK, let's be serious on the discussion and NOT take it where it shouldn't go. There is a good explanation here https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/the- ... appearance" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and it sums up the basis on refusal of service

For the most part, courts have decided that the constitutional interest in providing equal access to public accommodations outweighs the individual liberties involved.

Bottom line, just because you don't believe in what they believe does not mean you can discriminate against them. This case where the KKK won a suit against a bakery is a prime example of how the courts will general rule on these types of issues http://tribuneherald.net/2013/08/23/kkk ... imination/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Keith, I'm not disputing the legal issues you outline, but I am saying that this law is selectively enforced:
http://buzzpo.com/christian-man-denied- ... iage-cake/

The selective enforcement is the issue to me. Personally, if I was a baker I'd have no problem providing a cake for a gay wedding. However, we both know that none of this has anything to do with obtaining equal treatment under the law. No one orders heterosexual wedding cakes and there is no reason to order a gay wedding cake if all you really want is the cake.

All this supposed non-discrimination nonsense is about radical homosexuals punishing the "non-believers" and forcing everyone who isn't a homosexual to, as you said in another post, "celebrate" their homosexuality. Accommodation isn't enough for them. Tolerance isn't enough for them. Acceptance isn't enough for them. They want unqualified endorsement and celebration.

Most people are not homosexuals and some people are very put off and disturbed by homosexuality, so these tactics will eventually produce a backlash. Personally, I'm not bothered by homosexuality or gay marriage. I don't think the government should be involved in weddings in the first place, and I don't care if homosexuals want to get married. As I said, if I was a baker I'd have no problem providing wedding cakes for gay weddings. In fact, if I thought doing so exclusively would boost my business I might even cater to the gay wedding trade. However, I'm also an onry old cuss and as long as one group of hucksters is going to run roughshod over the rights of those with whom they disagree I'm inclined to do the opposite of what I'd normally do.

Cedar Park Dad wrote:

VMI77 wrote:

K.Mooneyham wrote:I've been thinking about the whole "gay marriage cake" thing. I am not a baker, nor do I produce any other tangible product, I just want to put this out there as a hypothetical. My question, as in the title, is are you required to produce a quality product? That is, if you were forced to bake said cake or have the state and/or Feds come down on you, what if you simply made a really lousy cake? Not one that was harmful, just one that was poorly made and tasted bad, like a really dry cake? What could the consequences be, from a legal standpoint, from such an action?

EDITED TO ADD:

I ask this question because a former NYC Councilwoman said she would force businesses to serve those Westboro folks. What if they came in and wanted a "glad soldiers died" cake? They are some pretty nasty folks, IMO.

Short answer is no, based on my experience with businesses of all types. If there was a requirement to deliver a quality product about 80-90% of the businesses in this country would be breaking the law. Ultimately, the marketplace decides whether your product is good enough to keep you in business.

It's funny to read the comments from "progressives" about how businesses should respond to this stuff. Many of them say that the business owners should just keep their mouths shut about their beliefs if they want to save themselves some grief. Funny how they don't say that the customers should keep their mouths shut about their sexual preferences. When I buy a cake I don't say I want a cake for a heterosexual birthday, anniversary, or wedding, I just ask for a cake. The only reason for someone to specify that a cake is for a gay wedding is to attempt to make trouble for the business, be provocative, or try to create some pretense for exploiting someones beliefs. In essence, as TAM said, it's about "celebration." They're not seeking equal treatment under the law, they're seeking endorsement.

Back in ancient times when we did our wedding cake, there were a whole list of questions about the cake, so I'm not getting where you're coming from on that.
Fortunately for me, the wife had hay fever so I had to perform all taste testing. In fact I had to test several things twice just to be sure.

I'll confess, I've never purchased a wedding cake. We had one at our wedding reception but at this point I don't even remember how it got there. My point was simply that if you're gay and want a wedding cake you don't have to make being gay an issue. I don't know what kind of list of questions you're talking about, but if they were about anything except the type of cake, dimensions, decoration, etc, they wouldn't get an answer. If they had a list of questions for me to answer that went beyond what I considered necessary to get the cake I wanted I'd go somewhere else to get a cake. But then, my wife and I aren't the kind of people who care about who did what cake or designed what dress, or would spend $10,000 or more on a wedding, so I understand that others might attach more importance to a cake than I do.

And I'd do the same thing if I was gay and wanted a wedding cake and the baker said I don't do gay wedding cakes. If NO ONE would sell me a cake for a gay wedding I'd either get a friend to make one, make one my self, do without a wedding cake, or just pick up an assortment of cakes from a store like HEB, where they don't ask you what the cake is for. I'd go somewhere else, or do without, just like I do when I see a business sporting a no guns sign. I don't go into the business and argue with the owner about 2nd Amendment rights, I go spend my money somewhere else. And I don't try to sue the business, nor would I even if my rights were recognized by the law with the same gravity that homosexual rights are. Gay activists aren't suing Christian bakers because they can't find anyone to bake a cake for their wedding. They're suing to point the government's gun at the head at those with whom they disagree, to punish them, and force them to endorse and celebrate homosexuality.

VMI77 wrote:

Cedar Park Dad wrote:

VMI77 wrote:

K.Mooneyham wrote:I've been thinking about the whole "gay marriage cake" thing. I am not a baker, nor do I produce any other tangible product, I just want to put this out there as a hypothetical. My question, as in the title, is are you required to produce a quality product? That is, if you were forced to bake said cake or have the state and/or Feds come down on you, what if you simply made a really lousy cake? Not one that was harmful, just one that was poorly made and tasted bad, like a really dry cake? What could the consequences be, from a legal standpoint, from such an action?

EDITED TO ADD:

I ask this question because a former NYC Councilwoman said she would force businesses to serve those Westboro folks. What if they came in and wanted a "glad soldiers died" cake? They are some pretty nasty folks, IMO.

Short answer is no, based on my experience with businesses of all types. If there was a requirement to deliver a quality product about 80-90% of the businesses in this country would be breaking the law. Ultimately, the marketplace decides whether your product is good enough to keep you in business.

It's funny to read the comments from "progressives" about how businesses should respond to this stuff. Many of them say that the business owners should just keep their mouths shut about their beliefs if they want to save themselves some grief. Funny how they don't say that the customers should keep their mouths shut about their sexual preferences. When I buy a cake I don't say I want a cake for a heterosexual birthday, anniversary, or wedding, I just ask for a cake. The only reason for someone to specify that a cake is for a gay wedding is to attempt to make trouble for the business, be provocative, or try to create some pretense for exploiting someones beliefs. In essence, as TAM said, it's about "celebration." They're not seeking equal treatment under the law, they're seeking endorsement.

Back in ancient times when we did our wedding cake, there were a whole list of questions about the cake, so I'm not getting where you're coming from on that.
Fortunately for me, the wife had hay fever so I had to perform all taste testing. In fact I had to test several things twice just to be sure.

I'll confess, I've never purchased a wedding cake. We had one at our wedding reception but at this point I don't even remember how it got there. My point was simply that if you're gay and want a wedding cake you don't have to make being gay an issue. I don't know what kind of list of questions you're talking about, but if they were about anything except the type of cake, dimensions, decoration, etc, they wouldn't get an answer. If they had a list of questions for me to answer that went beyond what I considered necessary to get the cake I wanted I'd go somewhere else to get a cake. But then, my wife and I aren't the kind of people who care about who did what cake or designed what dress, or would spend $10,000 or more on a wedding, so I understand that others might attach more importance to a cake than I do.

And I'd do the same thing if I was gay and wanted a wedding cake and the baker said I don't do gay wedding cakes. If NO ONE would sell me a cake for a gay wedding I'd either get a friend to make one, make one my self, do without a wedding cake, or just pick up an assortment of cakes from a store like HEB, where they don't ask you what the cake is for. I'd go somewhere else, or do without, just like I do when I see a business sporting a no guns sign. I don't go into the business and argue with the owner about 2nd Amendment rights, I go spend my money somewhere else. And I don't try to sue the business, nor would I even if my rights were recognized by the law with the same gravity that homosexual rights are. Gay activists aren't suing Christian bakers because they can't find anyone to bake a cake for their wedding. They're suing to point the government's gun at the head at those with whom they disagree, to punish them, and force them to endorse and celebrate homosexuality.

Two questions come to mind:

Bride cake / groom cake?
The little people on top.

Other than that yea you have me. Maybe if they put the names of the people involved on it (I don't remember either)?
Maybe we're having a difficulty because in the real world its not an issue that really comes up other than when people are pushing an agenda.

Cedar Park Dad wrote:Two questions come to mind:

Bride cake / groom cake?
The little people on top.

Other than that yea you have me. Maybe if they put the names of the people involved on it (I don't remember either)?
Maybe we're having a difficulty because in the real world its not an issue that really comes up other than when people are pushing an agenda.

The Wedding Cake for my Son's Wedding - Zombie Hunter Couple:


My Son's Groom's Cake - Master Chief (HALO), Guarding his Bacon:


(By the way, that was real bacon, on maple icing. That cake was nothing short of awesome. My wife and I designed it, and I ordered the collectible Master Chief figurine from Amazon.com.)

Cedar Park Dad wrote:

VMI77 wrote:

Cedar Park Dad wrote:

VMI77 wrote:

K.Mooneyham wrote:I've been thinking about the whole "gay marriage cake" thing. I am not a baker, nor do I produce any other tangible product, I just want to put this out there as a hypothetical. My question, as in the title, is are you required to produce a quality product? That is, if you were forced to bake said cake or have the state and/or Feds come down on you, what if you simply made a really lousy cake? Not one that was harmful, just one that was poorly made and tasted bad, like a really dry cake? What could the consequences be, from a legal standpoint, from such an action?

EDITED TO ADD:

I ask this question because a former NYC Councilwoman said she would force businesses to serve those Westboro folks. What if they came in and wanted a "glad soldiers died" cake? They are some pretty nasty folks, IMO.

Short answer is no, based on my experience with businesses of all types. If there was a requirement to deliver a quality product about 80-90% of the businesses in this country would be breaking the law. Ultimately, the marketplace decides whether your product is good enough to keep you in business.

It's funny to read the comments from "progressives" about how businesses should respond to this stuff. Many of them say that the business owners should just keep their mouths shut about their beliefs if they want to save themselves some grief. Funny how they don't say that the customers should keep their mouths shut about their sexual preferences. When I buy a cake I don't say I want a cake for a heterosexual birthday, anniversary, or wedding, I just ask for a cake. The only reason for someone to specify that a cake is for a gay wedding is to attempt to make trouble for the business, be provocative, or try to create some pretense for exploiting someones beliefs. In essence, as TAM said, it's about "celebration." They're not seeking equal treatment under the law, they're seeking endorsement.

Back in ancient times when we did our wedding cake, there were a whole list of questions about the cake, so I'm not getting where you're coming from on that.
Fortunately for me, the wife had hay fever so I had to perform all taste testing. In fact I had to test several things twice just to be sure.

I'll confess, I've never purchased a wedding cake. We had one at our wedding reception but at this point I don't even remember how it got there. My point was simply that if you're gay and want a wedding cake you don't have to make being gay an issue. I don't know what kind of list of questions you're talking about, but if they were about anything except the type of cake, dimensions, decoration, etc, they wouldn't get an answer. If they had a list of questions for me to answer that went beyond what I considered necessary to get the cake I wanted I'd go somewhere else to get a cake. But then, my wife and I aren't the kind of people who care about who did what cake or designed what dress, or would spend $10,000 or more on a wedding, so I understand that others might attach more importance to a cake than I do.

And I'd do the same thing if I was gay and wanted a wedding cake and the baker said I don't do gay wedding cakes. If NO ONE would sell me a cake for a gay wedding I'd either get a friend to make one, make one my self, do without a wedding cake, or just pick up an assortment of cakes from a store like HEB, where they don't ask you what the cake is for. I'd go somewhere else, or do without, just like I do when I see a business sporting a no guns sign. I don't go into the business and argue with the owner about 2nd Amendment rights, I go spend my money somewhere else. And I don't try to sue the business, nor would I even if my rights were recognized by the law with the same gravity that homosexual rights are. Gay activists aren't suing Christian bakers because they can't find anyone to bake a cake for their wedding. They're suing to point the government's gun at the head at those with whom they disagree, to punish them, and force them to endorse and celebrate homosexuality.

Two questions come to mind:

Bride cake / groom cake?
The little people on top.

Other than that yea you have me. Maybe if they put the names of the people involved on it (I don't remember either)?
Maybe we're having a difficulty because in the real world its not an issue that really comes up other than when people are pushing an agenda.

I read an article in The Atlantic about the tactic of attacking small businesses over gay rights issues. The author thought the effort was misplaced and probably counterproductive in the long run. I skimmed through the comments and not surprisingly, most of them appeared to be quite happy with destroying small businesses who don't conform to the gay agenda. However, as to the "toppers" on cakes, there seemed to be somewhat of a consensus that cool people don't put toppers on their wedding cakes these days.

I've never seen a wedding cake with names on it, but then, I've not seen that many wedding cakes.

RPBrown wrote:I own my own business and really do not have a problem servicing to other factions of life. In the grand scheme of things, its a job. Nothing more, and nothing less. It doesn't mean I have to agree with their lifestyle, religion, or anything else that is different from me.

The only thing I ask is that there is someone at the location that speaks English. I should not be required to supply a translator to ride with a technician on a call. I am thinking about adding a recording to my phone system that says press 1 for English or press 2 to be transferred to Rosetta Stone.

There is a group of people that ALWAYS tries to negotiate a lower price AFTER the work is quoted and done. It makes me wish I didn't have to deal with them only because of this.

I am retired now but when I owned my own business I was required to provide a translator regardless of the language spoken (at my expense).

I'm curious , the members that believe that a person should be legally forced to do business with or provide services to another person whom they consider to be doing something morally wrong . What would be your reasoning or justification in forcing a person to involve themselves in doing any business with you although you knew it went against their moral values ?

Just a few examples :

To prove you can ?

To prove they are wrong ?

To teach them a lesson ?

Because it is legally possible ?

Just because you can ?

To prove you are in the right ?

To further your cause ?

Because you have no other options ?

I Am not opening a debate , I will not rebuttal any post you make , I am honestly curious . Thanks !

The bible tells me that it is neither my place nor responsibility to judge other people's moral values. What was immoral 50-100 years ago is common place today. I own my own small business, and I try to treat everyone with the same excellent customer service.

Private business should be allowed to discriminate as they see fit. The market will decide who stays in business. The problem with jim crow laws was the gov forced business to discriminate. Indiana had it right, before they amended it, saying the gov can't be used to force the baker. The only "business" that should be prevented from discriminating is the gov. People choose to "discriminate" in virtually every facet of our lives. ie choice in who to date, choice in where to do business, choice in where to go to school, etc etc