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AEA wrote:3 tours in Vietnam and VERY Experienced.

That is why I said "I am sorry to say". It would have been done automatically without any other thought considered.

Nothing personal taken.

I appreciate your service to our great country. Especially during a time when you troops were not treated as you shuold have been. You have my admiration and respect.

What do you do these days?

Thanks for your Kudos......it was a long time ago but you never forget the training and the live fire during the action. With CHL and plenty of range time, I keep my skills honed.

Marine Seismic Surveys, Worldwide.

What? It's not like in the movies?

Harry Callahan: We're not just going to let you walk out of here.

Crook: Who's "we", sucker?

Harry Callahan: Smith, and Wesson, and me.

If they had not fired a shot upon entering and their actions during the robbery were not overly aggressive, I would let them walk out.

The firing of the shot upon entering is what would have put my actions in motion and it would have been over (one way or another) before I had a chance to think about anything else.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

A .380 and no mags, 2 armed bad guys, that is not really a situation I want to be in, though I have done it myself with 22lr (less the bad guys). Amazing how something as simple as getting some eggs and hash browns can really be life changing issue.

You guys that would have engaged, please list your favorite and least favorite restaurants so I can make sure we avoid each other.

Use common sense. Be prepared with the correct tools for the job.

Go home at a decent hour. Do not visit restaurants on Main Highways day or night. Stay away from convenience stores and gas bars at night. Make sure your spare tire is inflated and your jack equipment is operational. Carry 2 gallons of gasoline in your trunk. Keep you cell phone charged. Keep your wits about you and maintain situational awareness.

Train hard, Muscle Memory will keep you alive, your second thoughts will kill you.

AEA wrote:Use common sense. Be prepared with the correct tools for the job.

Go home at a decent hour. Do not visit restaurants on Main Highways day or night. Stay away from convenience stores and gas bars at night.
.

Sure sounds good. But idealistic for folks who have to travel for a living. some things in life are wrth taking a few small risks. Being able to spend a few extra hours with those we love, can be worth the risk of stopping at a gas station late at night.

Sigh ... I type this from a hotel in Austin and looking forwad to being with my wife tonight.

AEA wrote: Use common sense. Be prepared with the correct tools for the job.

AEA wrote: Go home at a decent hour.

Life is short enough as it is without writing off a good portion of it avoiding goblins.

AEA wrote: Do not visit restaurants on Main Highways day or night.

I've always eaten when I was hungry, at any restaurant that looked inviting. No need to change that policy just because I've had a CHL for the last dozen+ years now. When in unfamiliar territory, the restaurant on the main highway is probably the only one I can find.

Even tactically, I'd question the "benefit" of wandering around in unfamiliar surroundings looking for a restaurant that is out of the way. One could easily stumble into a bad neighborhood and end up in a lot more trouble than they would be likely to find at the well lit place on the main highway.

JMHO.

AEA wrote: Stay away from convenience stores and gas bars at night.

Even safer would be to just stay home, preferably ensconsed in a "safe room", hunkered down behind cover.

Only problem is, I've got a life to live and things to do. Sometimes I want/need a coke or some gas at night.

AEA wrote: Make sure your spare tire is inflated and your jack equipment is operational.

Always good advice.

AEA wrote: Carry 2 gallons of gasoline in your trunk.

NEVER DO THIS. Not only is it illegal in many jurisdictions, but if you get rear ended there is a strong chance that the container will get damaged and start leaking gas. This could turn the car into a deathtrap.

Better to just be aware of your gas gage and make sure you don't run out.

AEA wrote: Keep you cell phone charged. Keep your wits about you and maintain situational awareness.

Train hard, Muscle Memory will keep you alive, your second thoughts will kill you.

In the real lonely places, you may not have cell phone coverage. But other than that,

txinvestigator wrote:

Paladin wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:Had he decided to engage, the safety of every single person in there was on his shoulders.

Actually it tends to be on the shoulders of the BGs that decided to rob the place and open fire. In places like Florida, if anyone dies during the robbery (like say one robber gets killed by a CHL), then the surviving BGs get charged with murder.

No actually Paladin, it would have rested squarely on HIS shoulders.

As a CHL instructor and a former LEO I would expect you to know that if the BG's intentionaly kill someone during an aggravated robbery, that is capital murder on them. It the BG's accidentally kill someone during an aggravated robbery, that is muder on them. If a CHL or LEO kills a BG during the commission of an aggravated robbery, that is self defense for the CHL or LEO.

That doesn't leave much liability left for your buddy if he can shoot properly.

Although like I said, I wouldn't want to get into a firefight with only a KelTec .380.

Every case is different, but it could be argued that stopping the threat is looking after the safety of the people in there and the community at large.

AEA wrote:Thanks for your Kudos......it was a long time ago but you never forget the training and the live fire during the action. With CHL and plenty of range time, I keep my skills honed.

Marine Seismic Surveys, Worldwide.

A doodlebugger!

Been there done that too.

Anygun

AEA wrote:Use common sense. Be prepared with the correct tools for the job.

Train hard, Muscle Memory will keep you alive, your second thoughts will kill you.

Thats good stuff!!!

There is legal guilt and moral guilt.

Waffle House is so darn cramped and when its full, its like being on a full bus with bodies the backstop in all directions.

In a crowded restaurant, I would not want the blood of others on my hands if I started the gunfight.

Given a door-facing aisle seat with your strong hand on the aisle, I can see how going to kneeling would get your rounds into the first BG and keeping them out of the people lining the walls, but the 2nd BG could react in time especially if you could not index him within .5 sec.

I presume Tx's friend did not even have the tactical setup even if he had been armed properly.

AEA wrote:Use common sense. Be prepared with the correct tools for the job.

Go home at a decent hour. Do not visit restaurants on Main Highways day or night. Stay away from convenience stores and gas bars at night. Make sure your spare tire is inflated and your jack equipment is operational. Carry 2 gallons of gasoline in your trunk. Keep you cell phone charged. Keep your wits about you and maintain situational awareness.

Train hard, Muscle Memory will keep you alive, your second thoughts will kill you.

Man, you're even more hardcore than me! I'll take your advice.

I heard on the news story (I listen to 1080am and 820am all day) that they DID rob the customers for their wallets. I know I didn't hear this wrong, but maybe they got the story wrong. Or this was another incident. The one I heard about was on I-35 in Fort Worth.

This is a tough one. I always wonder what I'd do if someone came in to rob the joint, or just start shooting as in Luby's a while back. In the second case, there is no question. The guy is there to kill and that's it. That's a life or death situation. In your friend's case it makes sense to me why he didn't try to gun them down inside the restaurant (even though I wish he had been able to). It's also a good thing he was there if things escalated. At least there was someone in the building with experience and a firearm.

This does bring up some questions to me. For one, remember the discussion about off duty cops open carrying? I wonder how the situation would have been different if a BG spotted a gun on a guy's hip. In this situation it would seem better to have a concealed weapon so that you could get the drop on them if they let down their guard. Now if it was five or six LEOs open carrying...that could turn the tables.

Another issue is the lack of firepower. You know how much I love my .22's and such, but seriously in this situation it would be practically useless other than a last ditch effort if things went really bad.

This makes it all too clear that you should have formidable firepower available, extra mags and lots of practice. Another discussion about whether to keep the gun cocked and locked or not brings up the point that in a situation like this, you might as well not have a gun if it's not already chambered. That "click click" sound would be enough to give you away.

As far as Waffle House goes. They all seem to have the same layout. You can pretty much see what's going on in the entire place. Maybe that's why these guys are targeting that establishment. I heard that the police suspect that these are the same guys that have robbed at least one other one.

austin wrote:There is legal guilt and moral guilt.

I agree.

Given a door-facing aisle seat with your strong hand on the aisle ( . . . )

No such thing in any Waffle House I've ever been in (which is a lot, in a lot of different parts of the country). At least not unless you're left-handed. Every door-facing seat is left side out.

I presume Tx's friend did not even have the tactical setup even if he had been armed properly.

In such circumstances as describe here, where it was a straight-up robbery, I'd give up the wallet (or at least the cash). But if they started shooting and I was armed with a P3AT, you can bet that I'd draw... and then I'd turn to my right and put two rounds through the glass, and dive through the window.

Because every Waffle House I've ever seen is a glass box, and I'm pretty sure I could shoot my way out of one.

Kevin