TexasCHLforum.com

cyphertext wrote:

Abraham wrote:cyphertext/ldj1002 ,

You guys don't get it, I understand...principle is hard for some to accept.

Being compliant is easy - Principle not so easy...

Show me your papers!

Schnell!!!

No, you don't get it... Again, I have never experienced a police officer just walking up to me and asking for ID. However, if I am outside of my home, I carry ID. If I am walking across a street and am hit by a car, an ID is a nice thing to have on you so that they can notify family.

Maybe while I am out, I decide to stop in at a local pub and have a beer... guess what, they might ask for my ID! Maybe I stop by Walmart to get a bottle of wine and a box of ammo while I am out... Dang it, they are demanding that I show my papers!

See, there is a huge difference between carrying an ID for my own personal convenience vs. providing ID to LEO when not legally required.

Cypher - I don't think carrying ID on your person is what Abraham was talking about... Having it on your person to identify your corpse or showing a clerk at Wally World your ID to prove your age is a completely different scenario then being compelled by an Peace Office.

Pariah3j wrote:

cyphertext wrote:

Abraham wrote:cyphertext/ldj1002 ,

You guys don't get it, I understand...principle is hard for some to accept.

Being compliant is easy - Principle not so easy...

Show me your papers!

Schnell!!!

No, you don't get it... Again, I have never experienced a police officer just walking up to me and asking for ID. However, if I am outside of my home, I carry ID. If I am walking across a street and am hit by a car, an ID is a nice thing to have on you so that they can notify family.

Maybe while I am out, I decide to stop in at a local pub and have a beer... guess what, they might ask for my ID! Maybe I stop by Walmart to get a bottle of wine and a box of ammo while I am out... Dang it, they are demanding that I show my papers!

See, there is a huge difference between carrying an ID for my own personal convenience vs. providing ID to LEO when not legally required.

Cypher - I don't think carrying ID on your person is what Abraham was talking about... Having it on your person to identify your corpse or showing a clerk at Wally World your ID to prove your age is a completely different scenario then being compelled by an Peace Office.

No, he was very clear... I said it was a good idea to always carry an ID, even when just "walking about" for many reasons, and he went off on a tirade about Nazi Germany and papers...

Tirade?

Sigh...you really don't get it do you?

It's ok, not all do...

MeMelYup wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:

MeMelYup wrote:

Abraham wrote:MeMelYup,

If you're not carrying, are committing no crime, no, you don't HAVE to produce I.D. just because an LEO requests it.

They certainly can request, but you don't have to produce.

You can tell them legally tell them to go pound sand if they demand I.D. if (once again) you're simply going about your innocent business without carrying and not committing an offense.

If you are walking down the street with your hands in your pockets and an officer demands ID for no reason you are not required by law to show your ID. If you are in a store that has just been robbed without you knowing it and the responding officer demands ID you are obligated to identify yourself, as there are extenuating circumstances. If you have a CHL and are carrying you must respond with ID and CHL.

There is no law in Texas that requires a person to carry ID all the time. There are requirements for certain activities that a person carries ID. If you are driving and an officer pulls you over for a traffic violation, you must provide ID. If you are carrying a firearm with a CHL and an officer has reason to stop you and ask for ID, you must provide ID and CHL. If you purchase merchandise and the cashier asks for ID, you can refuse, but the store can also refuse to let the transaction go through.

If you are walking down the street and have a heart attack wouldn't it be nice to have an ID on you?

What law requires you to identify yourself to an officer if you are in a store that has been robbed? What is the penalty for refusing to do so?

No law, but they can detain you until all their questions are answered.

Actually there is a law:
ETA: but only if you give false information. However who is to say you aren't arrested for the possibility of being involved and if you refuse to cooperate?

Sec. 38.02. FAILURE TO IDENTIFY. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.
(b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has:
(1) lawfully arrested the person;
(2) lawfully detained the person; or
(3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense.
(c) Except as provided by Subsections (d) and (e), an offense under this section is:
(1) a Class C misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (a); or
(2) a Class B misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (b).

Abraham wrote:Tirade?

Sigh...you really don't get it do you?

It's ok, not all do...

No, I don't get the idea of an adult refusing to carry ID when out. I know that there is no law requiring you to, but it is stupid not to. Please enlighten me on reasons why one should not carry ID.

Actually there is a law:
ETA: but only if you give false information. However who is to say you aren't arrested for the possibility of being involved and if you refuse to cooperate?

Nope. that's why I said "detained" not arrested. Arrest requires Probable Cause and just the "possibility" doesn't rise to a "probability". The police are not always your friend (especially Feds) and I personally will decide whether to identify myself or not based on the circumstances and my Constitutional rights.

casp625 wrote:

MeMelYup wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:

MeMelYup wrote:

Abraham wrote:MeMelYup,

If you're not carrying, are committing no crime, no, you don't HAVE to produce I.D. just because an LEO requests it.

They certainly can request, but you don't have to produce.

You can tell them legally tell them to go pound sand if they demand I.D. if (once again) you're simply going about your innocent business without carrying and not committing an offense.

If you are walking down the street with your hands in your pockets and an officer demands ID for no reason you are not required by law to show your ID. If you are in a store that has just been robbed without you knowing it and the responding officer demands ID you are obligated to identify yourself, as there are extenuating circumstances. If you have a CHL and are carrying you must respond with ID and CHL.

There is no law in Texas that requires a person to carry ID all the time. There are requirements for certain activities that a person carries ID. If you are driving and an officer pulls you over for a traffic violation, you must provide ID. If you are carrying a firearm with a CHL and an officer has reason to stop you and ask for ID, you must provide ID and CHL. If you purchase merchandise and the cashier asks for ID, you can refuse, but the store can also refuse to let the transaction go through.

If you are walking down the street and have a heart attack wouldn't it be nice to have an ID on you?

What law requires you to identify yourself to an officer if you are in a store that has been robbed? What is the penalty for refusing to do so?

No law, but they can detain you until all their questions are answered.

Actually there is a law:
ETA: but only if you give false information. However who is to say you aren't arrested for the possibility of being involved and if you refuse to cooperate?

Sec. 38.02. FAILURE TO IDENTIFY. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.
(b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has:
(1) lawfully arrested the person;
(2) lawfully detained the person; or
(3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense.
(c) Except as provided by Subsections (d) and (e), an offense under this section is:
(1) a Class C misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (a); or
(2) a Class B misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (b).

That, I believe is missing a clearly made distinction within the cited law - you do not have to carry nor produce ID, and I don't believe that there is any such law that requires that. I do agree that you must identify yourself. The law clearly says "give" and that seems to clearly indicate that you can orally provide that information. And nowhere do I read anything about producing any identification. I'm not saying anything else about what I would or wouldn't do, simply pointing out that what I can read of the law it simply doesn't require anyone to carry ID.

Glockster wrote:

casp625 wrote:

MeMelYup wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:

MeMelYup wrote:

Abraham wrote:MeMelYup,

If you're not carrying, are committing no crime, no, you don't HAVE to produce I.D. just because an LEO requests it.

They certainly can request, but you don't have to produce.

You can tell them legally tell them to go pound sand if they demand I.D. if (once again) you're simply going about your innocent business without carrying and not committing an offense.

If you are walking down the street with your hands in your pockets and an officer demands ID for no reason you are not required by law to show your ID. If you are in a store that has just been robbed without you knowing it and the responding officer demands ID you are obligated to identify yourself, as there are extenuating circumstances. If you have a CHL and are carrying you must respond with ID and CHL.

There is no law in Texas that requires a person to carry ID all the time. There are requirements for certain activities that a person carries ID. If you are driving and an officer pulls you over for a traffic violation, you must provide ID. If you are carrying a firearm with a CHL and an officer has reason to stop you and ask for ID, you must provide ID and CHL. If you purchase merchandise and the cashier asks for ID, you can refuse, but the store can also refuse to let the transaction go through.

If you are walking down the street and have a heart attack wouldn't it be nice to have an ID on you?

What law requires you to identify yourself to an officer if you are in a store that has been robbed? What is the penalty for refusing to do so?

No law, but they can detain you until all their questions are answered.

Actually there is a law:
ETA: but only if you give false information. However who is to say you aren't arrested for the possibility of being involved and if you refuse to cooperate?

Sec. 38.02. FAILURE TO IDENTIFY. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.
(b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has:
(1) lawfully arrested the person;
(2) lawfully detained the person; or
(3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense.
(c) Except as provided by Subsections (d) and (e), an offense under this section is:
(1) a Class C misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (a); or
(2) a Class B misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (b).

That, I believe is missing a clearly made distinction within the cited law - you do not have to carry nor produce ID, and I don't believe that there is any such law that requires that. I do agree that you must identify yourself. The law clearly says "give" and that seems to clearly indicate that you can orally provide that information. And nowhere do I read anything about producing any identification. I'm not saying anything else about what I would or wouldn't do, simply pointing out that what I can read of the law it simply doesn't require anyone to carry ID.

Looking at the law as cited it appears that you only have to identify if under arrest or detained (which LE has certain requirement that must be met to detain an individual). They can REQUEST your information if they think you are a witness, but you will only be charged with failing to identify if you give false information. It seems to me, in that situation if you refuse to identify you can't be charged.

With the exception that you do not have to give information if you are only detained, only if you are arrested.

ScottDLS wrote:

With the exception that you do not have to give information if you are only detained, only if you are arrested.

Maybe someone with more knowledge than myself can verify, but I believe you have to identify if you are being legally detained. I am under the impression that if they have probable cause/reasonable suspicion that you have committed, or are about to commit, a crime they can detain you. If they have justification to detain you they can then force you to identify. For example, I would consider myself detained after being pulled over for going 10 miles over the speed limit. I must identify upon request to the officer. If I am just walking down the street and a cop approaches with no justification to stop me then he cannot detain me.

Even though I support law enforcement and the tough job they face every day, I also would not relinquish my 4th amendment right to appease anyone.

Goldspurs wrote:

ScottDLS wrote:

With the exception that you do not have to give information if you are only detained, only if you are arrested.

Maybe someone with more knowledge than myself can verify, but I believe you have to identify if you are being legally detained. I am under the impression that if they have probable cause/reasonable suspicion that you have committed, or are about to commit, a crime they can detain you. If they have justification to detain you they can then force you to identify. For example, I would consider myself detained after being pulled over for going 10 miles over the speed limit. I must identify upon request to the officer. If I am just walking down the street and a cop approaches with no justification to stop me then he cannot detain me.

Even though I support law enforcement and the tough job they face every day, I also would not relinquish my 4th amendment right to appease anyone.

Sec. 38.02. FAILURE TO IDENTIFY. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.
(b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has:
(1) lawfully arrested the person;
(2) lawfully detained the person; or
(3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense.
(c) Except as provided by Subsections (d) and (e), an offense under this section is:
(1) a Class C misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (a); or
(2) a Class B misdemeanor if the offense is committed under Subsection (b).

If you are ARRESTED you have to give your name. If you are DETAINED it is a crime to give a FALSE name, but not to refuse to give a name.

ScottDLS <---- Waiting for someone to declare this thread a dead horse and tell us all to move on....


"Can't we all just get along....?" -Rodney King

I vaguely recall a guy filming somewhere (no, I don't recall much detail, other than) he was demanded his name, not requested, by some LEO's .

He told them he didn't have to give them his name or show I.D. as he was not committing any crime. He wasn't.

Ultimately, after this citizens refusal to produce or verbally inform them of his name, the LEO's quit bothering him, never got his name and then they drove away.

We don't live in a police state.

However, the meeker citizen will quickly knuckle under with excuses like "what's the harm, just give them your I.D." unwilling to stand up to police state tactics when they're employed.

ScottDLS wrote:ScottDLS <---- Waiting for someone to declare this thread a dead horse and tell us all to move on....


"Can't we all just get along....?" -Rodney King

As the topic author, I'll say it.