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bblhd672 wrote:Reading this brought a question to mind - in Texas would a civilian using a taser in a situation like this be acceptable?

ELB wrote:

C-dub wrote:...I understand the danger of letting someone get within reach and all that, but we don't have the authority of LE. Especially since he was unarmed and not a clear deadly threat I think it would be a very hard road to convince anyone that the use of deadly force would have been justified in this situation. The OP's hand to hand skills are what saved him from a nightmare.

I'm not sure what authority an LEO would have regarding self-defense or defense of another that a citizen wouldn't have. Once the pistol is brought into play justifiably, as it was here, preventing an attempted disarm would seem to be every bit as much justification for the citizen as for an officer. Like nightmare69 pointed out, other factors like disparity of stature come into play, and I would think also disparity of age (get the feeling bubba84 was not the younger combatant), the fact that the bf had kicked the woman to the ground and again while she was on the ground, and the defender's own level of training would play into it. Bubba84 turned out to have some open-hand skills that he felt he could employ, but another person may not have those, and I don't think the law requires he let himself be beaten and/or disarmed, especially by a younger/maybe stronger and certainly more vicious assailant. It might be sticky, but if someone else without hand-to-hand training had been in bubba84's shoes, I think there would be a good case to be made if this clown had been shot instead of grappled.

Congrats to bubba84 and glad it turned it alright for you and everyone else.

sbrawley wrote:

flowrie wrote: Saw something some time ago about "Ability, Opportunity, and Intent" or "AOI". Seems to me like this bad guy would fill the bill on all three, but hope I never have to deal with such a situation.
Are there any LEO's or former LEO's that can comment on the "AOI" ? Is this taught?

That sounds like something a professor covered when I was taking my basic courses at the community college. I can't remember the subject matter, but whatever the subject was it doesn't get fulfilled unless all elements are present. Some examples he gave were:

Situation: Two rivalry gang members (X and Y) are in a building together
Scenario 1: X & Y are in separate rooms making death threats to each other. Only intent is present.
Scenario 2: X has a weapon and is making death threats to Y. Intent and ability are present.
Scenario 3: X enters the same room as Y and makes death threats. Opportunity, Intent, and Ability are all present. X has now fulfilled the elements.

Man, I wish I could remember what was being covered.

bubba84 wrote:Dropped the wife off at the front of JCPenneys as the kids and I were gonna wait in the car. I moved about a 1/3 of the way through the parking lot away from the store and parked under a light pole. There was a couple standing at their vehicle at the very back of the parking lot. I could hear their argument with my windows rolled up. The female was standing at the rear of their SUV with the liftgate up, changing a babies diaper while the male was pacing back and forth around the car. She finished changing the diaper and placed the child in the rear seat on the drivers side. She got in the drivers seat. He got in the passenger side and slammed the door so hard I saw the glass ripple. She got out, grabbed the baby, and started walking back to the store. I told my kids that if I got out of the vehicle they were to stay put, be still, and be quiet. She pulled her phone out and was dialing while walking away. When she started dialing, he jumped out of their vehicle and ran up behind her and kicked her right leg out from under her. She stumbled, dropped the phone and almost dropped the baby. I got out of my vehicle and as I was approaching, he kicked her again. I yelled for him to get away from her and to stop kicking her. He turned his attention toward me and yelled an explative followed by "you, nerd." (Didnt know I looked nerdy). As he started toward me, he shoved his hand in his pocket. I drew and pointed my pistol at him and told him to remove his hand from his pocket and get on the ground. Spent 8.5 years in LE and the muscle memory and commands were instictual. I started reaching for a radio mic that wasnt where I wore it when I was in uniform. He showed his hands and kept approaching. I reholstered to keep the pistol secure because I knew it was about to go fisticuffs. A lady in another vehicle also saw the entire incident and went to flag down a trooper that had passed by a few seconds prior to this. As he got within arms reach, I spun him away from me and arm barred him to the ground. I was on top of him when the trooper pulled up and yelled for me to get off of him. I told the trooper I was not getting off of him until he was in handcuffs as he had assaulted his gf, was combative and resisting. The trooper pulled his taser and cuffs. Trooper told the bf that if he continued to fight before he was cuffed that he would be tased, I helped the trooper cuff him.

The local pd showed up and started their investigation. The gf and other female witness corroborated what had happened. They took pictures of her injuries, recorded her and my statement on a video camera and BF was hauled off to jail.

locke_n_load wrote:

bubba84 wrote:Dropped the wife off at the front of JCPenneys as the kids and I were gonna wait in the car. I moved about a 1/3 of the way through the parking lot away from the store and parked under a light pole. There was a couple standing at their vehicle at the very back of the parking lot. I could hear their argument with my windows rolled up. The female was standing at the rear of their SUV with the liftgate up, changing a babies diaper while the male was pacing back and forth around the car. She finished changing the diaper and placed the child in the rear seat on the drivers side. She got in the drivers seat. He got in the passenger side and slammed the door so hard I saw the glass ripple. She got out, grabbed the baby, and started walking back to the store. I told my kids that if I got out of the vehicle they were to stay put, be still, and be quiet. She pulled her phone out and was dialing while walking away. When she started dialing, he jumped out of their vehicle and ran up behind her and kicked her right leg out from under her. She stumbled, dropped the phone and almost dropped the baby. I got out of my vehicle and as I was approaching, he kicked her again. I yelled for him to get away from her and to stop kicking her. He turned his attention toward me and yelled an explative followed by "you, nerd." (Didnt know I looked nerdy). As he started toward me, he shoved his hand in his pocket. I drew and pointed my pistol at him and told him to remove his hand from his pocket and get on the ground. Spent 8.5 years in LE and the muscle memory and commands were instictual. I started reaching for a radio mic that wasnt where I wore it when I was in uniform. He showed his hands and kept approaching. I reholstered to keep the pistol secure because I knew it was about to go fisticuffs. A lady in another vehicle also saw the entire incident and went to flag down a trooper that had passed by a few seconds prior to this. As he got within arms reach, I spun him away from me and arm barred him to the ground. I was on top of him when the trooper pulled up and yelled for me to get off of him. I told the trooper I was not getting off of him until he was in handcuffs as he had assaulted his gf, was combative and resisting. The trooper pulled his taser and cuffs. Trooper told the bf that if he continued to fight before he was cuffed that he would be tased, I helped the trooper cuff him.

The local pd showed up and started their investigation. The gf and other female witness corroborated what had happened. They took pictures of her injuries, recorded her and my statement on a video camera and BF was hauled off to jail.

I definitely would not have reholstered to go hand to hand. At that point, there is already a firearm involved (yours). If he were to get a lucky punch in, there is a very real possibility of having your firearm taken and you being shot to death by your own firearm.
If someone is advancing towards me while I have drawn, if they keep coming, they will get shot. There will be a verbal warning, but there is not going to be a fistfight.

And always be careful when coming to the aid of unknown parties - there have been instances of the person who was assaulted lying to cover the abuser. I.e. abused wife/gf lies to cover abusive husband/bf, and the good Samaritan getting the shaft.