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I admit to not just shooting up my sd ammo on a whim. In his example of at a water bottle I might or might not shoot, a major factor would be whether or not i had ear protection with me. As far as round selection I carry 175gr critical duty in my 40 based on different tests I have seen. It feeds great and hits where i aim it. My 380 ammo choice was based largely on what I could get several boxes of at a time. I carry pdx1 Winchester, not exactly the best tested round in a mouse gun but not the worst either. If I get some extra money for ammo and can find some hst I'll probably buy some to test.

The video got me to thinking. My defensive ammo has become precious to me. It's been too long since I've rotated it out. Its been too long since I've shot it and I never really practiced or tried it out enough. Most of it it is Hornady critical /defense, and I even have a box of Hornady Zombie Max. (Same thing as Critical defense). I picked up a couple of boxes of Sig Sauers' "Elite Performance 9mm 124gr. These cost about $0.65 a round, cheaper than the $1.00+ typical price for the typical hyper ammo.

It may not perform as well in the gelatin test as well as some of ther higher priced brands, but tests seem to claim that it is reliable, accurate and performs adequately. What I require for everyday carry is 124gr, and from a reputable manufacturer.

I have 3 9mm handguns that I keep loaded and expect to call on for defense.

Beretta Storm Sub compact 3" barrel
Ruger P 95 4/12 "
Beretta P92

The Storm PX4 SCis my Most often EDC, The others are truck or bedside protection. It will take about 125 Rounds to fully load my mags. another 300 to qualify the ammo. Price matters. I will rotate the old stuff out and replace it with the Sig Sauer ammo. Once this is done I will shoot a mag full of this stuff at least once a month. I won't allow my ammo to become precious.













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Charles L. Cotton wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:07 am
As I noted before, many years experience as a firearms instructor has proven to me that people simply will not practice with ammo that costs $1+/round. They shoot practice ammo, but carry something else. That's Paul's major issue with hyper ammo. He never said it's a poor performer. He points to other issues that make it a poor choice for most people who have to buy their own ammo.

Chas.

Chas, you and Paul Harrell raise several good points. It certainly is a problem that LTC's do not practice with "precious" carry ammo.

I don't carry new ammo unless I have shot at least a box of 50. More extensive testing, like point-of-aim - point-of-impact, left-right handed only, etc is very good to have. Changing out carry ammo every 6-24 months is also the best plan.

That said, with modern handguns and modern premium ammunition(Gold Dot, Ranger, Federal Tactical, HST, etc) I have never, ever had a problem during testing or when I fired "old" ammo at the range. Unlike brass, those nickel casings look pristine even after carrying them in hot, humid environments after a long period of time.

I don't ever want to have a problem when my life is on the line, so I continue to test and cycle out old ammo. Fortunately I can financially comfortably afford to do so.

As I write this Gold Dot 9mm is going for around $22-24 per box of 50 and Winchester Personal Protection is going for around $20.

Lets not regard carry ammo as "precious", but a 10% premium for Gold Dot ammo is easily worth it in my opinion.

The Annoyed Man wrote: Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:23 am I just want to know where I can get some of those Hertenburger Buscadero Ticondas.

I have a few in a caliber that I no longer have, but I am going to keep them for myself. As you know, they are precious.

Paladin wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:37 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:07 am
As I noted before, many years experience as a firearms instructor has proven to me that people simply will not practice with ammo that costs $1+/round. They shoot practice ammo, but carry something else. That's Paul's major issue with hyper ammo. He never said it's a poor performer. He points to other issues that make it a poor choice for most people who have to buy their own ammo.

Chas.

Chas, you and Paul Harrell raise several good points. It certainly is a problem that LTC's do not practice with "precious" carry ammo.

I don't carry new ammo unless I have shot at least a box of 50. More extensive testing, like point-of-aim - point-of-impact, left-right handed only, etc is very good to have. Changing out carry ammo every 6-24 months is also the best plan.

That said, with modern handguns and modern premium ammunition(Gold Dot, Ranger, Federal Tactical, HST, etc) I have never, ever had a problem during testing or when I fired "old" ammo at the range. Unlike brass, those nickel casings look pristine even after carrying them in hot, humid environments after a long period of time.

I don't ever want to have a problem when my life is on the line, so I continue to test and cycle out old ammo. Fortunately I can financially comfortably afford to do so.

As I write this Gold Dot 9mm is going for around $22-24 per box of 50 and Winchester Personal Protection is going for around $20.

Lets not regard carry ammo as "precious", but a 10% premium for Gold Dot ammo is easily worth it in my opinion.

I think Gold Dots are far cheaper than other "hyper" ammo, at least when bought in 50 rd boxes. That's what I carry in my self-defense handguns. I've shot about 100 rds total, which isn't much since there are five guns in my rotation. However, I've shot at least 1,000 rds of factory-equivalent ammo. For example, I buy 124 gr JHP Gold Dot bullets for $250/1,000 and load them to duplicate factory velocity in my 5" Government model 9mm. Those are the ones I periodically shoot for practice. (I practice extensively with FMJs I load for a fraction of factory cost.) My total cost per 1,000 rds. is $290 compared to $480/1,000 if bought in 50 rd. boxes, or $1,099 if bought in 20 rds. boxes. I don't consider brass in my calculations because I have enough 9mm brass for three lifetimes. Using new Starline brass would add $130.00 to my figures.

Chas.

Paladin wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:37 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:07 am
As I noted before, many years experience as a firearms instructor has proven to me that people simply will not practice with ammo that costs $1+/round....

Chas.

Chas, you and Paul Harrell raise several good points. It certainly is a problem that LTC's do not practice with "precious" carry ammo.

Although absolutely true, the bigger problem [IMO] is that most LTC's don't practice much, AT ALL! This forum's membership is not representative of the 'LTC' public at large, when it comes to preparedness. I bet less than 10% have ever sought additional training or have made non-static range time a habit. Heck, very few even dry fire, and that is free! (OK, I'll admit that I rarely dry fire! )

As noted, buying in 50 rd boxes helps immensely and you can buy in larger lots as well. Buy a 1/2 case (500rd) of carry ammo at a very reasonable price on line. That allows you to proving the gun(s), run carry mags regularly and have enough to last a couple years. And it saves more than the initial investment, over the term, than buying individual boxes... and the benefit of the case or1/2 case is all the ammo is of the same lot, shoots the same and is loaded the same.

flechero wrote: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:14 am

Paladin wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:37 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:07 am
As I noted before, many years experience as a firearms instructor has proven to me that people simply will not practice with ammo that costs $1+/round....

Chas.

Chas, you and Paul Harrell raise several good points. It certainly is a problem that LTC's do not practice with "precious" carry ammo.

Although absolutely true, the bigger problem [IMO] is that most LTC's don't practice much, AT ALL! This forum's membership is not representative of the 'LTC' public at large, when it comes to preparedness. I bet less than 10% have ever sought additional training or have made non-static range time a habit. Heck, very few even dry fire, and that is free! (OK, I'll admit that I rarely dry fire! )

As noted, buying in 50 rd boxes helps immensely and you can buy in larger lots as well. Buy a 1/2 case (500rd) of carry ammo at a very reasonable price on line. That allows you to proving the gun(s), run carry mags regularly and have enough to last a couple years. And it saves more than the initial investment, over the term, than buying individual boxes... and the benefit of the case or1/2 case is all the ammo is of the same lot, shoots the same and is loaded the same.

flechero, I think you have an important point that seeking additional training and practice is very important and something all LTC's should be doing.

That said, compared to 20 years ago I see a lot more people at the range and a lot more people that can consistently hit their targets. Marksmanship is improving and we need to keep up the progress!

Paladin wrote: Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:14 am

flechero wrote: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:14 am

Paladin wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:37 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:07 am
As I noted before, many years experience as a firearms instructor has proven to me that people simply will not practice with ammo that costs $1+/round....

Chas.

Chas, you and Paul Harrell raise several good points. It certainly is a problem that LTC's do not practice with "precious" carry ammo.

Although absolutely true, the bigger problem [IMO] is that most LTC's don't practice much, AT ALL! This forum's membership is not representative of the 'LTC' public at large, when it comes to preparedness. I bet less than 10% have ever sought additional training or have made non-static range time a habit. Heck, very few even dry fire, and that is free! (OK, I'll admit that I rarely dry fire! )

As noted, buying in 50 rd boxes helps immensely and you can buy in larger lots as well. Buy a 1/2 case (500rd) of carry ammo at a very reasonable price on line. That allows you to proving the gun(s), run carry mags regularly and have enough to last a couple years. And it saves more than the initial investment, over the term, than buying individual boxes... and the benefit of the case or1/2 case is all the ammo is of the same lot, shoots the same and is loaded the same.

flechero, I think you have an important point that seeking additional training and practice is very important and something all LTC's should be doing.

That said, compared to 20 years ago I see a lot more people at the range and a lot more people that can consistently hit their targets. Marksmanship is improving and we need to keep up the progress!

I think a lot of that has to do with the availability, of training, for civilians. 20 years ago, it was almost impossible to find training courses, for real life scenarios, unless you were a LEO. That is changing, due to demand. More people are getting their LTC, and are seeking additional training. I know that even a few years ago, when I first got my LTC, finding training, or even ranges where I could practice, tactical shooting, was an exercise in futility, unless, I had hundreds of dollars to throw away. I had to rely, on my LEO, training, and practice on private property. Today, there are several one, and two day classes, available, at reasonable prices. Some designed, just for women, who are becoming the fastest growing segment of LTC holders. JMHO

flechero wrote: Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:14 am

Paladin wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:37 am

Charles L. Cotton wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:07 am
As I noted before, many years experience as a firearms instructor has proven to me that people simply will not practice with ammo that costs $1+/round....

Chas.

Chas, you and Paul Harrell raise several good points. It certainly is a problem that LTC's do not practice with "precious" carry ammo.

Although absolutely true, the bigger problem [IMO] is that most LTC's don't practice much, AT ALL! This forum's membership is not representative of the 'LTC' public at large, when it comes to preparedness. I bet less than 10% have ever sought additional training or have made non-static range time a habit. Heck, very few even dry fire, and that is free! (OK, I'll admit that I rarely dry fire! )

As noted, buying in 50 rd boxes helps immensely and you can buy in larger lots as well. Buy a 1/2 case (500rd) of carry ammo at a very reasonable price on line. That allows you to proving the gun(s), run carry mags regularly and have enough to last a couple years. And it saves more than the initial investment, over the term, than buying individual boxes... and the benefit of the case or1/2 case is all the ammo is of the same lot, shoots the same and is loaded the same.

Yes, the folks in this forum are more likely to practice and/or train. For myself, in training and USPSA, I expect to fire over 2000 rounds this year. That does not include practice at the range. I encourage my family members to train and practice as well. My three youngest sons have taken multiple classes this year. Their 86 year old grandfather, along with my youngest brother, have taken a class and will take another this month. We went to the range this weekend. I took them through drills to improve their grouping and practice safe gun handling on the range. They each shot about 50 rounds. Then we went home and cleaned pistols.

Neither my father nor my brother are as mobile as they were once. My brother is recovering from a broken femur and cancer. Still in chemo, but in remission. On the 29th of September, at KR Training, they, along with my three sons, will be firing 100 rounds during a 4 hour class. I'll be loading magazines for my father and helping him.

We start each session, training/practice/USPSA, firing a magazine of self defense ammo. Winchester White Box or Remington Green Box JHP, 115 grain 9mm. We carry ammo that we will use in training and practice.

However, I have been unable to encourage my wife to participate at the level I would want. Loud noises and bright sunlight can trigger migraines for her. She has had her personal epiphany about carrying on-body, but has not yet fully embraced the necessity for training. Still working, patiently, on that.

Meanwhile, my sons continue to learn and improve. My father and brother, despite their physical constraints, continue to train and practice. They are all and each an inspiration to me.

I just watched Paul Harrell's video - great stuff!

Fun guy to watch/listen to along with being very informative.