TexasCHLforum.com

KBCraig wrote: The situation as he described it is not what you just described. He said they pounded on the door, yelling, then the door flew open. Quite a bit different from easing the door open a crack and asking, "Hellooooo! Anyone home?"

Here's a quote from the OP.

Anyway, I digress. Yesterday I was in the bedroom getting dressed and I heard the doorbell ring and some guy shouting "hello, hello". My wife was feeding our daughter so I went to see who it was. About 10 feet from the door the door swings open and out of pure reflex I unholster, stop in my tracks, get in a good stance and bring the pistol to low ready. It was my mother-in-law and her husband (the idiot screaming "hello, hello").

Nothing about anyone "pounding" on the door. Nothing about the door "flying open".

The bottom line is that the guy guessed wrong and drew when there was no need. Yes, he had incomplete information. This is quite often the case when possible "situations" pop up. In this case, he evaluated the information he had and came up with the wrong answer.

I'll give him credit for having the best of intentions - i.e. wanting to protect his family. But that doesn't change the fact that his response was, at least in my opinion, inappropriate.

If we want to play "what if", what if his FIL (the "idiot") was a direct descendent of a liason between John Wesley Hardin and Sharon Stone's character "the Lady" from the movie "The Quick and the Dead", and when he saw Cipher had his gun out, the FIL "instinctively" drew his own gun and blew Cipher away "without thinking" before Cipher could get a shot off?

And back in the real world, if Cipher draws on someone on the street when there is no need he could find himself in trouble with the law or worse.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:
The bottom line is that the guy guessed wrong and drew when there was no need. Yes, he had incomplete information. This is quite often the case when possible "situations" pop up. In this case, he evaluated the information he had and came up with the wrong answer.

i disagree... while the situation wasn't entirely the mil's fault, the unlocked door is not an invitation to "barge in"...

responding at the ready is THE ONLY response you should have when someone enters your home without you being aware they are doing so... since when is being prepared to defend your family the WRONG answer?

he didn't shoot her, he prepared for the worst, which is what we all do by carrying.... to say that his response was wrong is to criticize a normal response to a possible threat in your home...

i hope that when i forget to lock the door and someone runs in, i'm aware enough to make it possible to defend myself.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Cipher wrote:
I didn't draw down on family, I drew down on a threat.

You drew down on something that you briefly thought might be a threat that turned out to be family.

Nobody's slamming you here. You asked for opinions. You're getting them.

In my opinion, in the situation as you described it, you were too quick to draw.

If someone was at my door knocking and saying, "Hello. Hello.", and then they open the (unlocked) door, that does not fit my profile of a "threat". I would not feel a need to draw in that situation. Maybe there's a risk there. I'll accept it.

And look at what happened! You ended up drawing down on your inlaws for Pete's sake. Think about what it must have looked like from their point of view.

There's all kinds of training. You can train in weapon presentation, fast and accurate shooting, how to shoot, clearing rooms, using cover, etc.

And you can also train to recognize situations where it is appropriate to draw and shoot (or not), and those where it is not appropriate to draw or shoot.

What I see here is a situation that you misidentified as a threat. Possibly with enough of the right kind of training your threat recognition skills could be improved.

Keep in mind that if you misidentify a threat on the street and draw down on someone when you shouldn't, you could end up facing criminal charges. This is why threat identification is an important thing for people with CHL's to be knowledgeable at.

None of this is intended as any kind of slam. I'm just stating my opinion and advice. You're free to agree or not, and to take it or not.

And I do not agree with those who say you did "fine". Drawing on your MIL is not "fine" unless she was trying to break down your door with a baseball bat.

Finally, let me express my appreciation for your service to our country.

Cipher,

I think you did well.

To All,

We may be having an issue with definitions here. If Cipher went to "low ready" the weapon wasn't pointed at anybody and had it discharged he would've (in a peer and beam) been out some carpet and plywood. The MIL wasn't looking down the barrel of anything.

Readying the weapon should be instinctual. Forming a sight picture,dropping the finger inside the guard and discharging the weapon should be a rapid chain of analysis and reaction. When I clear a building, I have the weapon at "low ready" and will be at "high ready" entering a blind room. The last thing that happens is the finger going into the guard after I have ID'd the target and obtained a sight picture (a smooth split second move).

As to the locked doors, what about safe haven. If my daughters are going to be outside, I don't want them to have to knock, fiddle with a key or enter a combination to get in if there is a dog or BG threatening. And yes, I do know who's coming through the door in those cases , usually have for half a block.

Though I have opted to keep weapons at strategic access points and don't feel the need to go heeled all of the time at the house. I can understand why Cipher would. Retrospection is called for in any post incident analysis but I don't think the man needs to be raked for it.

Kyle

Dragonfighter wrote: We may be having an issue with definitions here.

Nope. The gun never should have left the holster in my opinion.

Dragonfighter wrote: If Cipher went to "low ready" the weapon wasn't pointed at anybody and had it discharged he would've (in a peer and beam) been out some carpet and plywood. The MIL wasn't looking down the barrel of anything.

And if that carpet and plywood you refered to above was on the 2nd floor, then people going about their business in an apartment below could have been endangered.

Dragonfighter wrote: Readying the weapon should be instinctual. Forming a sight picture,dropping the finger inside the guard and discharging the weapon should be a rapid chain of analysis and reaction.

In a war zone maybe. But I don't live in one and I would guess that Cipher doesn't either.

What do we need - three drills? One for the 1st floor (no basement) to go to low ready. Another for the 2nd floor of a 2 story building to (maybe?) go to high ready? And if the building is more than two stories, then what? Dive out the nearest window (along with your family of course)?

Dragonfighter wrote: When I clear a building, I have the weapon at "low ready" and will be at "high ready" entering a blind room. The last thing that happens is the finger going into the guard after I have ID'd the target and obtained a sight picture (a smooth split second move).

I think clearing a building is not what Cipher was doing and is at best a topic for another thread.

Dragonfighter wrote: Retrospection is called for in any post incident analysis but I don't think the man needs to be raked for it.

No one is getting slammed. Cipher didn't ask for support. He asked for advice. He's getting it.

frankee_the_yankee wrote:No one is getting slammed. Cipher didn't ask for support. He asked for advice. He's getting it.

Rest assured, with the kind of ADVICE he's been getting, I'll never ask for advice here.

I'm sure some others feel the same.

Yeah, I kinda feel the same, this will be my last post regarding any "incident" I may have.

I've admitted to seeing and accepting the fault of leaving the doors unlocked, but there are some that keep on about the fact that it was my MIL on the other side of the door. I had no way of knowing who was coming in the house, and there was no danger of anyone getting shot (my finger was on the slide, not the trigger, so the people that would've lived under me would've been safe). It's easy to sit back and say I was wrong because the threat wasn't real - but the FACT of the matter is that there was a real potential for danger, and had it BEEN a BG I was in a perfect position to handle the threat. Had it BEEN a BG and I ignored the THREAT of the door coming open I would've failed to protect my family. I challenge anyone on here to draw and fire on a threat 10 feet away without preparation. I'm not saying I can do it, I pretty much know I can't, but I was prepared.

I will admit another fault, as much as this may look like backpedaling I can assure you it's not, in my hast to type up the post and get the incident off my chest I left out the pounding on the door. The doorbell range, some guy started SHOUTING "hello, hello", then he started pounding on the door, then the process repeated about 5 time (doorbell, "hello, hello", bang on door). The whole time I was walking up to the door I was thinking "What in the world". It was not a simple *ring*, "hello", walk in. It's my fault for leaving that out, I was still trying to process what happened and trying to decompress.

I felt an immediate need to prepare to defend my home, regardless of who was on the other side of the door. Maybe I'm wired to "hot", but if it keeps my wife and kids alive I will accept that risk.

Do not try and associate this with being on the street either. In the "wild" I'm constantly surveying my surroundings, keeping an eye on everyone and what everyone is doing and how everyone is acting. I am much more cautious about how I approach defense outside the home, but IN my home I will take no chances. In this situation I had no intelligence, I had no way of knowing who was out there and how they were acting before hand, all I knew was some guy was coming through my front door and I was all that stood between him and my wife.


I bet, had it been a BG and not a family member, and had I not drawn, I would be getting grief from the SAME people because I wasn't ready and was too SLOW to react.

And, I'm not getting upset at all that some people feel the way they do, I do take offense by people asking loaded (reaking of very thick accusatory and insinuating tones) questions with the intent on using whatever answer I may provide against me - that's a dirty way to provide criticism.

I find it highly surprising that a board full of people with the same intentions of protecting their loved ones can't understand my response.

Take the exact same circumstance, only instead of my MIL opening the door make it a BG with a <insert a weapon of your choice here> and tell me I drew to soon.

To those that have provided criticism without trying to goad me into a trap, thank you - all of your responses have been taken seriously, and this event has opened my eyes to some very real kinks in my armor.

Mike1951 wrote:

frankee_the_yankee wrote:No one is getting slammed. Cipher didn't ask for support. He asked for advice. He's getting it.

Rest assured, with the kind of ADVICE he's been getting, I'll never ask for advice here.

I'm sure some others feel the same.

This seems to be occurring more often on the forum.

We need to remember that this is a place to discuss items and we can respectfully disagree. There is not need to continually respond trying to "prove your point." We get it. Post your thoughts and opinion and move on unless specifically questioned about your post.

Since basically the same thing has happened to me twice, once my mother and the other my wife, I have to side with Cypher that his reaction was appropriate. Any time you have an unidentified person at your door and the door opens before you reach it, preparing to defend your life and family is only prudent.

When it happened with my mother, she was beating on our door and just as I entered the room to go to door, she gave it a kick and the jam came out of the frame. Maybe it was partly my fault as I had notice the flimsy state of the jam and planned to replace the next weekend (finished that night) BUT the door was CLOSED and she herself taught me to never enter someone elses house without their permission.

I have other thoughts on this but must leave now so they must wait until tommorrow.

But I am curious as to what Charles will say.

Mike1951 wrote:

frankee_the_yankee wrote:No one is getting slammed. Cipher didn't ask for support. He asked for advice. He's getting it.

Rest assured, with the kind of ADVICE he's been getting, I'll never ask for advice here.

I'm sure some others feel the same.

Cipher, I for one think you did the right thing by the way you reacted, I would have done the same.

If someone comes barging into my house Im not going to offer the intruder milk and cookies while I decide I they're a threat or not! Perhaps the intruder would be nice enough to wait for me to draw my weapon before he/she attacks me - given that waited to do so until I decided if they were a threat or not.

Tough call. Not sure I would have drawn in that situation.

I walked into my house the other day and did not realize the housekeeper was there. While I was spooked, I did not touch my weapon and quickly realized who she was. If she had been an intruder I think my reaction would be to retreat and regroup before going back into the house.

Earlier this week I was checking on a vacant rental I manage in south Dallas and found the garage door had been forced open. I had my weapon at low ready while I cleared the house. Nobody there, but low ready seemed appropriate.

Tom

tbranch wrote:Earlier this week I was checking on a vacant rental I manage in south Dallas and found the garage door had been forced open. I had my weapon at low ready while I cleared the house. Nobody there, but low ready seemed appropriate.

What were you thinking. You should have called the police and waited for them to arrive and investigate.

I think that this shows poor judgement on your part......oh....wait a minute...you weren't asking for advice. Sorry...my bad.

Lumberjack98 wrote:What were you thinking. You should have called the police and waited for them to arrive and investigate. I think that this shows poor judgement on your part......oh....wait a minute...you weren't asking for advice. Sorry...my bad.

Advice is always welcome. I actually had the same thought after the fact. Retreat is typically the safer choice.

Tom

Lumberjack98 wrote:

Mike1951 wrote:

frankee_the_yankee wrote:No one is getting slammed. Cipher didn't ask for support. He asked for advice. He's getting it.

Rest assured, with the kind of ADVICE he's been getting, I'll never ask for advice here.

I'm sure some others feel the same.

This seems to be occurring more often on the forum.

We need to remember that this is a place to discuss items and we can respectfully disagree. There is not need to continually respond trying to "prove your point." We get it. Post your thoughts and opinion and move on unless specifically questioned about your post.

Same people too.

Anygun

tbranch wrote: I walked into my house the other day and did not realize the housekeeper was there. While I was spooked, I did not touch my weapon and quickly realized who she was. If she had been an intruder I think my reaction would be to retreat and regroup before going back into the house.

I agree with you, but I'm not retreating when I'm the only thing between my family and the would be BG. Had I been alone I would have ducked off into the dining room and out of the line of fire/attack.

The rules, at least for me, change depending on if I'm alone or with my family. If I'm alone I'm much more inclined to run away, if I'm with my family my sole purpose becomes is to make sure THEY get away, and that will very likely dictate on whether or not I seek cover or stand my ground.

I know this is off topic, but I agree with what you're saying, but in this situation me getting out of the way wasn't an option (the front door has a direct line of sight/fire to the recliner my wife was sitting in).