Liberty wrote:Skiprr wrote:For example, Glock's ain't got no manual safety. M9s ain't got a safety either: they have a manual decocker (despite what what some call it, it is NOT a safety).
????? The lever on an M9 is a 2 position lever that isolates the trigger from the firing mechanism, and isolates the firring pin from the hammer. It also doubles as a decocker if that isn't a safety then I am confused. Maybe you are confused with the 92G which is configured as a spring loaded decocker....
Naw; not confused. Just "Farnamized": too many classes with John Farnam.
I remember Mas Ayoob writing an article some time ago with a title like, "Can Semantics Get You Killed?" I think Farnam would say, "Yes." He never refers to a two-stage manual decocker as a "safety," and you won't hear his students calling it that, either. His general opinion can be summed up:
I suspect the two-stage, manual decocking lever, like the "magazine safety," is something all manufacturers wish had never been invented. I, for one, wish neither had ever existed. Label any contraption a "safety," and some politician (who wouldn't know a gun from a waffle iron) will decide to mandate it. They care about their own safety, not ours!
With an item of emergency--safety equipment, like a pistol--that I carry routinely, the last thing I want on it is some confusing gimmick that will prevent it from working! Those of us who are serious need to have access to serious guns. We can only pray that manufacturers, between meetings with politicians and other grasseaters, will think of us every now and then.
A big peeve of John's is that the Marines still teach recruits to carry with the M9 decocked and sterilized. More comments:
Vicki [Farnam, John's wife], Steve Camp, Tom Burris, Les Laturno, and I, once again worked with our Marines in CA last week [circa 2006]. We did two, two-day Military Pistol Courses.
Most of our students will deploy overseas shortly. All used the M9 (Beretta 92F) pistol.
The "sterile carry" was the big issue. Most of our students indicated that they had been taught to carry the holstered M9 with a round chambered, but with the two-stage decocking lever (which they called the "safety") in the down ("sterile") position. Amazingly, even after the pistol is drawn, they indicated their instruction had been to leave the decocker down until an instant before they intended to fire....
When I asked if any had ever been through practice sessions where they were trained to push the lever up during the draw, all responded that no such training had ever been provided. In fact, most indicated that they had never been allowed to draw and fire the pistol from a holster in the first place.
When the decocking lever on these pistols is down, the hammer is always fully forward, because pushing the lever down automatically decocks the weapon. Also, when the decocking lever is down, the trigger is disconnected, and the weapon is thus sterile. Accordingly, pushing the decocking lever down effectively sterilizes, as well as decocks, the pistol. When carried this way, the decocking lever must be pushed up as the weapon is being drawn from the holster, so that the shooter will be able to shoot when the weapon comes on target. Because of the design and location of the decocking lever, most people find pushing it up during the draw clumsy, dubious, and difficult to master (even after a great deal of practice). Under stress, it is prone to failure. Not surprisingly, veteran gunmen carry this autoloader with the decocking lever up.
When the decocking lever is up, the pistol is "enabled." However, there is an additional passive firing-pin lock, interconnected with the trigger, that continues to block the firing pin until the trigger is pulled all the way and held to the rear. This insures that the weapon will not fire unless the trigger is held all the way to the rear during the entire forward hammer arc. It is a passive safety device that functions automatically, without conscious input from the shooter. Thus, when the hammer is fully forward, a live round is chambered, and the decocking lever is up, the weapon is every bit as safe as a double-action revolver in the same condition. Carrying the pistol with the decocker down doesn't make it one bit "safer."
The point is this: After years of experience training police officers, I have found precious few who can reliably push the decocking lever up as they are drawing the weapon and bringing it on target. Even people who claim they can do it, when put to the test, can't do it....
Like a fire extinguisher, a pistol is an item of emergency, life-saving equipment. It is critical that users and carriers of pistols be able to bring them to bear on the problem quickly, deftly, and with a minimum of encumbrances. Fortunately, we were able to persuade our students to abandon the sterile carry and carry the M9 "enabled," as do most professional gunmen. One Gy/Sgt commented, "I'm just going to carry it this way (enabled) from now on, and, if the Range Nazis don't like it, they can write me up!"
Bottom line is that what John will call a
safety is a device that will keep a cocked hammer or striker from firing. Think a 1911 or a CZ 75, or a Stoner design M16/AR platform. By that definition, firearms that have a decocker--be it a one- or two-stage manual decocker, or that are automatically decocking--do not have a "safety." He thinks the incorrect terminology sends the wrong message to politicians, procurement officers, manufacturers, and undertrained shooters.
Firearms can have multiple devices intended to improve safety, like the Glock Safe-Action trigger, beaver-tail blocks, the Kimber Series II firing pin block, or the "magazine safety" mentioned earlier. But a
safety is a singular device that is specifically designed to prevent a cocked hammer or striker from falling so long as that device is engaged. Handguns that have a
safety are correctly, optimally carried with striker or hammer cocked, and the safety engaged. That's what they're made for.
and no, i'm pointing out that the round that is in line with the barrel isn't the one that shoots off, it's the next one on the cylinder... so any one who is still nervous after the 10 pound DA pull, they can feel much better about that.
