TexasCHLforum.com

LaserTex;
thanks,neighbor for what you did; this HEB is one I sometimes go to and it's nice to know it is perhaps a little safer because of your involvmement.

Congrats on the plastic issued TODAY! 2 -3 days and your set!! But it is a holiday weekend. Dang it! I hope it is quick in the mail and you get it before.

Another neighbor and I are trying to find an hour or 3 at BulletHole on Monday. Maybe lunch at Schlaetcsky's (Yes, I didn't look it up on google but everyone of you know what I am talking about - that Sandwich place on Potranco.) Anyone interested?

http://www.bullethole.com/

Doug

The last thing I want to do is be forced to shoot someone. I don't want the problems involved in doing so. I will if I have to but it will not be over something as small as property and especially not over a cart of food. You should have been more aware of your surrounding so he didn't get that close. That is something you will learn with time. You should never escalate a bad situation by threatening to shoot someone in the face. You lost your cool and didn't mean it but if the guy calls and tells a LEO then you may get slammed. What if he pulled a gun because of your threat? That is my point in all this. I am not flaming you and really am on your side in this. I just don't want you to go around thinking you are justified in threatening to shoot someone over nothing. He was old and I assume you could beat him to death without much effort. You have a gun and a better reaction time than he has. Self-control is a major part of CHL and that is what I am concerned about. You do as you see fit but please consider what I posted.

LaserTex wrote:I was describing the man to paint a thorough picture while asking for advice. It had nothing to do with his social value. It had to do with an older man grabbing my cart and pulling it about 4 feet away from me (I had to take a large step to grab the front of the cart.)

Further update - I did contact the Manager of the HEB on Monday. He called the police to take a report. I retold the story and was told by the SAPD officer that "it would be a cold day in "a warm place" before an officer would have arrested me." HEB Manager also swore out a tresspass order to keep the guy off HEB property.
I was called on Tuesday afternoon by the manager to say that the man had come back to the HEB store, police were called and he was arrested and taken by the police in handcuffs.

Thank you to everyone for helping me wrap my head around this. I am still new (since January 2009) to carrying but in all honesty, I probably would have said the same thing even if I wasn't CHL. The whole incident, from start to finish lasted about 10 seconds. That resulted in an hour and a half writing my statement and being interviewed by the officers. Now I get to wait to be called to testify if this goes to trial. Hopefully it won't.

Thanks again all.

Doug

shootthesheet wrote:I weigh words by what would happen if a LEO was called. It seems the O.P. had a gun and threatened to shoot the man in the face for begging. Our responsibility is to deescalate the situation and not escalate it which the O.P. did and very unnecessarily. I am not flaming the O.P. or anyone else but those words alone could have the O.P. slammed by the law. I don't like Bums either but they have the right to life and we do not have a right to take that away because they are leaches on society. Lack of social value as a reason for persecution or murder is the same reasoning that has caused genocide in other countries where the people have no rights or justice. No flames or acquisitions here. I just cannot justify those words no matter how hard I try.

LaserTex wrote:HEB Manager also swore out a tresspass order to keep the guy off HEB property.
I was called on Tuesday afternoon by the manager to say that the man had come back to the HEB store, police were called and he was arrested and taken by the police in handcuffs.

And this, folks, is why most good police departments love the criminal trespass warning; if the problem comes back on the property, they can make it go away without needing anything else. Maybe not for very long, but at least for the rest of their shift. It's always worth the time if someone causes a problem on property you control.

BTW; a good quality pepper spray is cheap, and a lot easier to justify than shooting someone of limited threat capability.

LaserTex wrote:Maybe lunch at Schlaetcsky's

Schlotzsky's?
Funny name. Serious sandwich.

There ya go. See, no need to look it up myself :-) Thanks

D

I worked at one whenst I was in college.

SourDough is the bomb-diggity. I like the Jalapeno and Cheese bread the best

*drool*

shootthesheet wrote:The last thing I want to do is be forced to shoot someone. I don't want the problems involved in doing so. I will if I have to but it will not be over something as small as property and especially not over a cart of food. You should have been more aware of your surrounding so he didn't get that close. That is something you will learn with time. You should never escalate a bad situation by threatening to shoot someone in the face. You lost your cool and didn't mean it but if the guy calls and tells a LEO then you may get slammed. What if he pulled a gun because of your threat? That is my point in all this. I am not flaming you and really am on your side in this. I just don't want you to go around thinking you are justified in threatening to shoot someone over nothing. He was old and I assume you could beat him to death without much effort. You have a gun and a better reaction time than he has. Self-control is a major part of CHL and that is what I am concerned about. You do as you see fit but please consider what I posted.

I don't see it that way at all.

If you are moving/loading/unloading groceries you can be as "aware" of your surroundings as possible and still be pretty much subject to incidents like this happening. What do you do? Yell at him from 10 cars away to stay away? Turn around and head back to the store because you saw him in the parking lot? There is no way to anticipate if the guy was headed your way in the first place, and if you could, it was because he was close to you and obviously headed your way.

Any preemptive action that you could have taken could have been seen as overreacting to a threat that may have never happened. If you don't like what you see, turn around and wait or tell security. But if you are in the middle of unloading groceries and kids into your vehicle, that gives plenty of time and opportunity for a guy to show up univited at your carside. How do you and your "situational awareness" handle that? You stop what you are doing and address it.

I think the OP handled it well and should not be denigrated for failure to be "aware".

In addition, there is an assumption that you should be able to handle the guy physically. What leads one to believe that the OP is in a position to do that? You might also take into account that beating up an old-guy sure does not look good to a bystander. Get him out of there with the least fuss and emotion seems the best way to me. No bystander saw a gun, no bystander saw fists flying. All they apparently would have noticed was a guy having sharp-words and the "bum" letting go of someone else's cart and moving away.

Purplehood wrote:I think the OP handled it well and should not be denigrated for failure to be "aware".

I can think of a few instances where this would apply.
Pumping Gas is another.

Purplehood wrote:

shootthesheet wrote:The last thing I want to do is be forced to shoot someone. I don't want the problems involved in doing so. I will if I have to but it will not be over something as small as property and especially not over a cart of food. You should have been more aware of your surrounding so he didn't get that close. That is something you will learn with time. You should never escalate a bad situation by threatening to shoot someone in the face. You lost your cool and didn't mean it but if the guy calls and tells a LEO then you may get slammed. What if he pulled a gun because of your threat? That is my point in all this. I am not flaming you and really am on your side in this. I just don't want you to go around thinking you are justified in threatening to shoot someone over nothing. He was old and I assume you could beat him to death without much effort. You have a gun and a better reaction time than he has. Self-control is a major part of CHL and that is what I am concerned about. You do as you see fit but please consider what I posted.

I don't see it that way at all.

If you are moving/loading/unloading groceries you can be as "aware" of your surroundings as possible and still be pretty much subject to incidents like this happening. What do you do? Yell at him from 10 cars away to stay away? Turn around and head back to the store because you saw him in the parking lot? There is no way to anticipate if the guy was headed your way in the first place, and if you could, it was because he was close to you and obviously headed your way.

Any preemptive action that you could have taken could have been seen as overreacting to a threat that may have never happened. If you don't like what you see, turn around and wait or tell security. But if you are in the middle of unloading groceries and kids into your vehicle, that gives plenty of time and opportunity for a guy to show up univited at your carside. How do you and your "situational awareness" handle that? You stop what you are doing and address it.

I think the OP handled it well and should not be denigrated for failure to be "aware".

In addition, there is an assumption that you should be able to handle the guy physically. What leads one to believe that the OP is in a position to do that? You might also take into account that beating up an old-guy sure does not look good to a bystander. Get him out of there with the least fuss and emotion seems the best way to me. No bystander saw a gun, no bystander saw fists flying. All they apparently would have noticed was a guy having sharp-words and the "bum" letting go of someone else's cart and moving away.

....especially with the statement I highlighted.

Dang. And I really tried to explain how I had parked intentionally away for the major parking area. I know I said something about the van that was there when I came out ot the store. Oh well. I wasn't aware that the small car would leave and a panel van would park in that spot. The UHUAL is always somewhere right around there because the Rent a Center uses it daily.

Sorry - thanks for the advise. Maybe next time I just bum rush him into traffic.

D

It is of course virtuous to be so aware that you never run into trouble -- so for those of you this good, you can leave your guns at home. No chance you'll ever need them. But for the vast majority of normal mortals, who will despite best efforts be unable to stay a peak vigilance, and correctly analyze every possible future point of approach and attack in the average grocery store parking lot -- IOW, 100% of the human population -- they're going to be vulnerable at some, probably many points, and once confronted, have to do something.

LaserTex did OK. Not exactly what I would have done, but he ended up with no foul, no harm. Good for him.

IMHO when an uknown figure who appears to be in seemingly desperate cirumstances gives you an ultimatum, it is your responsablilty to take whatever actions required for you feel the situation is secure. If you had known this guy and were aware of his intentions then maybe yeah it could have been handled differently. Otherwise, good job, mission accomplished. You protected yourself and your property.

I think you did a fine job. As others have said, I *think* I'd handle it differently with a lower-aggression initial response, but I'll never know until I'm in that situation. And in the end, you took care of the situation with no one getting hurt == good job. Especially good on the followup and I'll join in the thanks as I also occassionally visit this HEB and appreciate you making it safer for me and others.

A visit to the Bullethole on Monday? Hmmm.... I've got a commitment in the a.m., but if we're meeting for lunch followed by shooting, I might be up for that. Would be neat to meat some of the SA contingent. And the other day, I found 2x 100 rd WWB .40 cal boxes at Wal-mart along with several bricks of .22 LR!!! They were limiting to two boxes total, so I only got one of the .40 and one brick of .22LR, but it was great. Of course, it was Wal-mart, so it took about 20 minutes to get someone to come and sell the ammo to me. Had to go to the front of the store, find the mgr, and ask him to ask someone specifically by name to go there. (They had already called about 4 times on the store speaker system.) Makes it kinda clear why they had ammo--'cause they don't sell it. What is wrong with those morons?

That is my problem. No .45 *other than carry*, no .380 6other than carry, no .38 at all. I got some .22 and 2 boxes .223. Looking again tomorrow at Bass pro.

D