Drew on a guy today

[joe817]

I want to say I agree 100% with what Abraham & USA1 said. This is an educational forum and I learn something everyday. It is by sharing our experiences with others here that we learn and improve ourselves.

Thank you for sharing your story with us.

[frazzled]

I want to say I agree 100% with what Abraham & USA1 said. This is an educational forum and I learn something everyday. It is by sharing our experiences with others here that we learn and improve ourselves.

Thank you for sharing your story with us.

Indeed, and as stated by others MERRY CHRISTMAS!

[priusron]

I find that a lot of people post without carefully reading the original post. I find that if I reread a posting, I no longer have a need to reply because I misunderstood what I read the first time. I did not present my weapon until he had come out of his vehicle and was approaching mine and was within 5-7 ft of my door. That is when I felt I was in danger, not at any other time. My weapon was on my lap because I am left handed and it is impossible to draw with your left hand and fire out the drivers door. For you right handed people, sit in the passenger seat and try it. I chose to be cautious. It all happened very fast. There was not time to think. The purpose of the post was to discuss what went through my mind as it was happening.

This incident has caused me to think a lot about "being a good witness". We live in a violence ridden society. Yes, there are worse than ours. I also recall that there were many, many witnesses to what happened to the Jews. They did nothing and look at the results. Many crimes are witnessed and a report taken, nothing else is ever done. If we all agree to be good witnesses, our country will decline. We will have our government pass laws that restrict our freedom and our right to purchase ammo and to bear arms. I want to live in a safe neighborhood and know the police cannot make it safe for use. Being a "good witness" will do nothing to make your neighborhood safer. What are we to do? The same old thing and latch the decline? I do not have the answer. I am just doing a lot of thinking.

Ron

[Beiruty]

Ron,

Please, do you think loitering or even dumping trash is a big crime? Is it worth it to get yourself in trouble? Are you willing to get shot for it? How about if you shot and killed someone over something like that? Can you live with consequences?
I am not saying you were wrong. I am asking is it justifiable and worth to intervene?

It is not like you stopped someone from killing someone or raping a young girl.
All our replies is just a kind of a warning as to pick your future interventions wisely.

[DoubleActionCHL]

I find that a lot of people post without carefully reading the original post... My weapon was on my lap because I am left handed and it is impossible to draw with your left hand and fire out the drivers door.

The fact that your weapon was on your lap suggests that you were preparing for a situation that might require deadly force. The situation didn't exist until you blocked in the other guy. Deadly force is a last resort. We avoid confrontation. We do not purposely place ourselves, and certainly not our families, in likely deadly force situations.

This incident has caused me to think a lot about "being a good witness". We live in a violence ridden society. Yes, there are worse than ours. I also recall that there were many, many witnesses to what happened to the Jews.

I understand your sentiment, and I appreciate your position. However, we're talking apples and oranges. You've certainly got to admit that there is a tremendous difference between dumping trash and genocide.

Ron: Don't take this criticism personally. Probably all of us have been in a situation where we saw a wrong and wanted to make it right. I'll even be willing to bet that some of the guys criticizing you have done something similar in their younger days. I know I did. Years ago, I came close to getting my butt kicked by 4 guys at a gas station because I politely asked one of them to watch his language. He was yelling at his buddies, interjecting extreme profanity as frequently as possible, and my 8 year old daughter was right there. I spoke up. In retrospect, I should have kept my mouth shut, because I created a much more dangerous situation. Was I right? Absolutely! Was it a smart decision? Not really.

Besides, if we really wanted to pick on you, we'd make fun of the fact that you drive a Prius!!!

[TxSigp229]

Hate to rain on your parade, but I am of the opinion that you were in the wrong here, with respect to drawing your handgun.

I don't see littering anywhere in the force statutes, let alone the deadly force statutes.
Sure, you could claim that he approached your vehicle in a threatening manner, but he could claim that you instigated it by blocking him in.
Other than approaching your vehicle, he did nothing that justified any kind of force.
As far as him littering, you're lucky he admitted to it, as it was his word versus yours. Both on scene, and in court.

For an example, spin the tables.

You're backed up to a fence area of your property that you own. Someone has dumped some trash there, and you're there cleaning it up.
Out of nowhere, some guy pulls in front of you, blocking you in. When you approach him to ask him what the heck he's doing, he pulls a gun on you.
In this situation, I would feel that *I* was justified to unload on this guy, since I was on my property, doing my own business, and he randomly pulled a gun on me for no reason.

You're lucky that the Sheriff's Officer didn't cuff you right there.

This is definitely a case where you should have just gotten his License Plate number, and reported it to police. No need to go Vigilante, and try to play Officer of the Law.
CHL Holders are not police. It is not your job to stop people in the commission of a crime. We get CHL's to protect ourselves, and our loved ones. What he was doing was no violent threat to anyone. By blocking him in, and pulling your handgun on him, you changed it from a petty littering scenario to a deadly force scenario, potentially putting your family at an even GREATER risk. If the guy had been armed, and was a CHL holder as well, chances are there would have been bullets flying through the air.

Just my opinion.

I hate to agree with Dicion but I must. I do not see anywhere in that story where the use of deadly force would have been warranted. Think about it this way, is it worth killing someone over some trash on the side of the road. I think you are very lucky that you are not trying to post bail right now. You probably would have been better served by stopping further away from the person, recording his plate # and calling the cops.

I also agree. Just because I have a CHL does not mean that I'm a LEO. I have no duty to enforce dumping/littering laws. The most I should do is tell the guy not to dump garbage. As the guy decided to pick up his trash after being told not to dump it, the incident was over. No point escilating the situation whether that guy was right or wrong. Just my .02 cents.

[mymojo]

Ron,

Ask yourself this question: If you had fired your weapon, would it have been self defense?
1) Any half decent prosecutor would point to the fact that the weapon was unholstered and in your lap prior to even speaking to the individual.
2) You initiated the contact. You were in no imminent danger from him until you moved toward him.
3) If you thought he was dangerous, why did you put your family in harms way?

This story, IMHO, would be a very hard sell for self defense.

Another thing to think about is you have a target audience here that is VERY gun friendly - consider carefully that a bunch of "gun nuts" are the ones raising these red flags and then consider how it would play in the minds of those less inclined to support your right to bear arms.

Had you fired, taking from the original post, you would almost certainly be depicted as a cowboy with an itchy trigger finger who blocked the guys escape and then executed him - for littering.

[koolaid]

I find that a lot of people post without carefully reading the original post. I find that if I reread a posting, I no longer have a need to reply because I misunderstood what I read the first time. I did not present my weapon until he had come out of his vehicle and was approaching mine and was within 5-7 ft of my door. That is when I felt I was in danger, not at any other time.

What was he supposed to do? You blocked his car in.

This incident has caused me to think a lot about "being a good witness". We live in a violence ridden society. Yes, there are worse than ours. I also recall that there were many, many witnesses to what happened to the Jews. They did nothing and look at the results.

I will slowly back away from this thread now.

[Beiruty]

Good thing is Ron brought up his story here on the forum. We all need to learn from it.

[karder]

Just food for thought:
We all have to be very careful, because we never know what we are getting ourselves into. You see a guy littering, you are frustrated and outraged, and because you have a CHL, you are emboldened to approach him when you might not be otherwise.

What if things are not what they seem? What if the guy is dumping a body with all that trash and is going to set it on fire? What if he is dumping something toxic?

You block him in, and have a pistol at the ready, so you feel confident. But he is mobile, and able to move about the truck at will. If he can position himself between the truck and your car, and he pulls a shotgun or an AR and opens fire, you are trapped in your car. He has a distinct tactical advantage. If he is doing something much more serious than dumping trash, and has a buddy sitting down the road a bit watching for the sheriff, things change even more. He pulls a cell phone and says "I'm calling the cops!" but calls his buddy a half mile away.

I know it seems crazy, but things are often not what they seem. While I do understand the frustration, snapping a photo, grabbing the license plate and moving on is the prudent thing to do. I see a situation here where you were at a serious tactical disadvantage and felt like you were in control of the scene. Just want you to be safe.

[DoubleActionCHL]

I think Ron gets the point.

I nominate this thread for the "From Zero to 'Beating a Dead Horse' in 6 posts" award!

[mctowalot]

Looks like those tie wearing ball players have never seen a sleeping horse.

Actually, IMHO is was a test, and we all passed.

[Bart]

[shootthesheet]

I would never have done what the O.P. did. Take the license plate number and call the police on a non-emergency number to report it. Never pull a gun over something that the law does not allow for. That is my opinion and I did not post to flame but encourage all to know and properly apply concealed carry legally.

[jbirds1210]

Would you jump into a shark tank to save it or stop it?

Answer yes: Pull gun and take care of your business.

Answer no: Call the police and be a good witness.

Jason