TexasCHLforum.com

OK folks, tone it down or the thread WILL be locked. No more warnings.

chabouk wrote:

marksiwel wrote:As far as how the Law works, If you steal a Car, sell it to a dealership, I then go to that dealership and buy it "In Good Faith" the Car is mine.
The Orignal owner of the Car may collect the amount of the Car from the Dealership. I cannot be sued (more or less)
Isnt the Law fun?

Are you sure about that?

It's been a long time since I studied business law, but it was a basic tenet that you can't pass bad title. If the title is bad, it reverts all the way back up the line to the rightful owner, and each person in the chain has to seek remuneration from the party they dealt with.

If I write a bad check to you, and you sign it over to a third party, who then deposits it to their bank and take out the cash, when the check bounces they're not coming after me, nor you: they're going after their customer who deposited it. His recourse then is to collect the money from you, and yours is to collect it from me.

Bona Fide Purchaser
You have to give value to its different than a check
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_fide_purchaser" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You buy it from the Pawn Shop its yours, be it a car/gun/guitar ect

chartreuse wrote:I dunno about that. I think that, sometimes, we all get tunnel vision on guns as guns and forget that guns are also property. Typically, we insure our property. Most of us wouldn't buy or sell a TV or a car without getting or giving some sort of bill or receipt, so why don't we do that with guns?

I disagree. I bought and sold a lot on craigslist and never got or gave a bill of sale. I did go with a buyer one time to transfer title on a car but we didn't do more paperwork than required by law.

Maybe I live in an honest city.

Trinitite wrote:

chartreuse wrote:I dunno about that. I think that, sometimes, we all get tunnel vision on guns as guns and forget that guns are also property. Typically, we insure our property. Most of us wouldn't buy or sell a TV or a car without getting or giving some sort of bill or receipt, so why don't we do that with guns?

I disagree. I bought and sold a lot on craigslist and never got or gave a bill of sale. I did go with a buyer one time to transfer title on a car but we didn't do more paperwork than required by law.

Maybe I live in an honest city.

Could be. Or it could be that I'm just extremely mistrustful of insurance companies.

marksiwel wrote:Bona Fide Purchaser
You have to give value to its different than a check
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_fide_purchaser" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You buy it from the Pawn Shop its yours, be it a car/gun/guitar ect

You might have missed a line in that web site. It mentions "depending on the laws of the relevant jurisdiction". At least here in Texas, if you sell a stolen gun, even as a licensed dealer, you lose both. The buyer loses what he gave you and loses the gun. The dealer loses the gun and whatever he paid for it. The gun is returned to the original legal owner by the police department.

I have done this with both guns and cars in Texas. When we find stolen property, the state takes custody of it until it is returned to its lawful owner. With cars, as a general rule, the insurance company pays the claim and gets the car. I have never had that happen with a gun yet, but I guess a good household contents policy could do the same thing.

And I have recovered guns stolen years before. The oldest I have ever recovered a stolen car was two years old. That was a smart thief because he stole the same year, make, and model for his own car. I only noticed when I was comparing the VIN from the registration to the car before impounding it. well, I guess he might not have been too smart because I was impounding it after arresting him for unpaid tickets.

I use a bill of sale when selling to cover my backside in case some law enforcement agency comes looking for that gun in the future. This way I can say "I sold the gun on this date to this person who listed this driver's license number and this address". Am I likely to ever need this? No. But it puts my mind at ease. I don't do this for pocket knives or refrigerators, because if those items are used in a crime, they are not easily traceable back to a single purchaser/user.

I also request a receipt or bill of sale when I'm buying a gun, for the same reason that I can prove chain of custody of the weapon (in case it WAS stolen, I can prove I didn't steal it because I bought it from this guy AFTER it was stolen and he signed his name acknowledging the gun was NOT stolen, so go talke to him). This simply proves I acquired the gun legally to the best of my knowledge.

Funny side note: I once purchased a used gun from a man who told me he was a former Federal law enforcement officer (and I have no reason to disbelieve him). He made me sign a two-page bill of sale with all kinds of legal mumbo jumbo on it and gave me a copy of it. He then said, "you know if you're thinking about committing a crime this is not the gun to do it with. The ballistic fingerprint of this gun is probably in every Federal database in existence" because he said he carried it as his BUG for most of his career and his agency logged the ballistics of all guns carried by all agents of that department. So point to the story is that he wanted to be VERY SURE he could prove he sold the gun legally because if it ever did turn up in a crime he was the first peson they'd come looking for.

srothstein wrote:

marksiwel wrote:Bona Fide Purchaser
You have to give value to its different than a check
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_fide_purchaser" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You buy it from the Pawn Shop its yours, be it a car/gun/guitar ect

You might have missed a line in that web site. It mentions "depending on the laws of the relevant jurisdiction". At least here in Texas, if you sell a stolen gun, even as a licensed dealer, you lose both. The buyer loses what he gave you and loses the gun. The dealer loses the gun and whatever he paid for it. The gun is returned to the original legal owner by the police department.

I have done this with both guns and cars in Texas. When we find stolen property, the state takes custody of it until it is returned to its lawful owner. With cars, as a general rule, the insurance company pays the claim and gets the car. I have never had that happen with a gun yet, but I guess a good household contents policy could do the same thing.

And I have recovered guns stolen years before. The oldest I have ever recovered a stolen car was two years old. That was a smart thief because he stole the same year, make, and model for his own car. I only noticed when I was comparing the VIN from the registration to the car before impounding it. well, I guess he might not have been too smart because I was impounding it after arresting him for unpaid tickets.

This must be Texas law, because under Common Law of the US you keep what you purchase and become the true owner.
If you were put in a postion where you bought something that turned out to be stolen and the state took it from you, you can sue and it might make it to the supreme court. As long as you purchase it in good faith

srothstein wrote:<SNIP>

I have done this with both guns and cars in Texas. When we find stolen property, the state takes custody of it until it is returned to its lawful owner. With cars, as a general rule, the insurance company pays the claim and gets the car. I have never had that happen with a gun yet, but I guess a good household contents policy could do the same thing.

Or it shows up in auction when the owner has taken the insurance payment and doesn't want it back. My dad had a few stolen during an extended burlary, the insurance paid up. Later as some were recovered, he had told the PD the insurance paid for them and they went to auction. Well, he changed his mind and went to the auction to buy his favorites back. I can't remember exactly but it seemed he came out slightly ahead. Some legacy stuff (generations in the family) was never recovered.

Dragonfighter wrote:Or it shows up in auction when the owner has taken the insurance payment and doesn't want it back. My dad had a few stolen during an extended burlary, the insurance paid up. Later as some were recovered, he had told the PD the insurance paid for them and they went to auction. Well, he changed his mind and went to the auction to buy his favorites back. I can't remember exactly but it seemed he came out slightly ahead. Some legacy stuff (generations in the family) was never recovered.

And that's something that no insurance policy can ever make right.

But I'm glad that we're finally talking about insurance and stuff. Guns ain't anything we need to be ashamed of - often they are very valuable personal property. And I think we should treat them as private property first and firearms second.

marksiwel wrote:

srothstein wrote:

marksiwel wrote:Bona Fide Purchaser
You have to give value to its different than a check
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_fide_purchaser" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You buy it from the Pawn Shop its yours, be it a car/gun/guitar ect

You might have missed a line in that web site. It mentions "depending on the laws of the relevant jurisdiction". At least here in Texas, if you sell a stolen gun, even as a licensed dealer, you lose both. The buyer loses what he gave you and loses the gun. The dealer loses the gun and whatever he paid for it. The gun is returned to the original legal owner by the police department.

I have done this with both guns and cars in Texas. When we find stolen property, the state takes custody of it until it is returned to its lawful owner. With cars, as a general rule, the insurance company pays the claim and gets the car. I have never had that happen with a gun yet, but I guess a good household contents policy could do the same thing.

And I have recovered guns stolen years before. The oldest I have ever recovered a stolen car was two years old. That was a smart thief because he stole the same year, make, and model for his own car. I only noticed when I was comparing the VIN from the registration to the car before impounding it. well, I guess he might not have been too smart because I was impounding it after arresting him for unpaid tickets.

This must be Texas law, because under Common Law of the US you keep what you purchase and become the true owner.
If you were put in a postion where you bought something that turned out to be stolen and the state took it from you, you can sue and it might make it to the supreme court. As long as you purchase it in good faith

Nemo dat quod non habet, can't sell what isn't yours. Even if it was sold in "good faith", BFP doesn't become true owner because the property was converted so seller never had actual title to sell. BFP would be left returning property and suing under an implied warranty theory against seller...implied that the goods were sold in good faith free of any defect, which in fact they weren't.

marksiwel wrote: This must be Texas law, because under Common Law of the US you keep what you purchase and become the true owner. If you were put in a postion where you bought something that turned out to be stolen and the state took it from you, you can sue and it might make it to the supreme court. As long as you purchase it in good faith

Mark,

With the greatest of respect, this is just incorrect. Some states have a different rule for an automobile grounded in its mobility and being titled, but not, to the best of my knowledge, other personal property.

I step back in because I do not want newbies to be misled on this. If they were it could really cost them.

Jim

grad_Student wrote:

marksiwel wrote:

srothstein wrote:

marksiwel wrote:Bona Fide Purchaser
You have to give value to its different than a check
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_fide_purchaser" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You buy it from the Pawn Shop its yours, be it a car/gun/guitar ect

You might have missed a line in that web site. It mentions "depending on the laws of the relevant jurisdiction". At least here in Texas, if you sell a stolen gun, even as a licensed dealer, you lose both. The buyer loses what he gave you and loses the gun. The dealer loses the gun and whatever he paid for it. The gun is returned to the original legal owner by the police department.

I have done this with both guns and cars in Texas. When we find stolen property, the state takes custody of it until it is returned to its lawful owner. With cars, as a general rule, the insurance company pays the claim and gets the car. I have never had that happen with a gun yet, but I guess a good household contents policy could do the same thing.

And I have recovered guns stolen years before. The oldest I have ever recovered a stolen car was two years old. That was a smart thief because he stole the same year, make, and model for his own car. I only noticed when I was comparing the VIN from the registration to the car before impounding it. well, I guess he might not have been too smart because I was impounding it after arresting him for unpaid tickets.

This must be Texas law, because under Common Law of the US you keep what you purchase and become the true owner.
If you were put in a postion where you bought something that turned out to be stolen and the state took it from you, you can sue and it might make it to the supreme court. As long as you purchase it in good faith

Nemo dat quod non habet, can't sell what isn't yours. Even if it was sold in "good faith", BFP doesn't become true owner because the property was converted so seller never had actual title to sell. BFP would be left returning property and suing under an implied warranty theory against seller...implied that the goods were sold in good faith free of any defect, which in fact they weren't.

Thank you, gentlemen. Mark's link had me scratching my head, because I knew it conflicted with what I had been taught (and with what seems to be "the right thing").

I only had time to do a brief search of the Texas statutes, so I didn't find an answer, but in the PC section on Theft it states that a stolen thing seized by police retains its "stolen" status. I assume that to mean that the person from whom it was stolen is entitled to recover it from the police.

chabouk wrote: Thank you, gentlemen. Mark's link had me scratching my head, because I knew it conflicted with what I had been taught (and with what seems to be "the right thing").

I only had time to do a brief search of the Texas statutes, so I didn't find an answer, but in the PC section on Theft it states that a stolen thing seized by police retains its "stolen" status. I assume that to mean that the person from whom it was stolen is entitled to recover it from the police.

It is the "right thing," chabouk, and as is usual, your speculation as to what the law is, is correct. Why? Because it is the "right thing," whence came much, if not almost all, of our common law.

In the case we are considering, if the good faith purchaser of stolen goods got good title, the only option to the person from whom it was stolen was "self help," or recovering his property from the good faith purchaser himself, since he could get no help from the law enforcement people or the judiciary. And back in the days when everyone kept and bore firearms this could lead to problems in the society which our early judges did not look favorably on.

In the absence of a statute, before legislators started messing with the common law, these judges came up with the "right thing," and our common law developed in this area around the basic rule, as stated by our grad. (law) student, one cannot convey title (clear ownership) to someone of someothing whose title he does not have.

All in the interest of avoiding civil strife, which is why we were, and still are, to some extent, dependent on common law, before the legislators started fooling around.

Jim

my 2 cents: I dont bother with Bill of Sales but do get all the info I can without asking outright. You would be amazed what you can get from a license plate. I usually get plates, cell or home number, email address, home address if it is a shipping deal, etc. Point is I have something if it ever becomes an issue and I have never needed any of it thru probably a hundred or more trades. I keep it all on a Word Doc with pics of the gun, dates, amounts, etc.

If I was really that worried I would just go through an FLL, let them do the background check and have them deal with the paperwork.
Atleast you will know you arent putting more guns on the streets (hopefully)