OC v. CC -- Hatfields v. McCoys All Over Again

[dominus]

Wow, I'm more confused than I was before. So OC may or may not require a new permit. It also may or may not affect the 30.06 signage. It also may or may not get cities the ability to ban any form of carry. Is there anywhere you can get facts vs. speculation any opinion? What exactly does this proposed law state? Anyone know?

[Keith B]

Wow, I'm more confused than I was before. So OC may or may not require a new permit. It also may or may not affect the 30.06 signage. It also may or may not get cities the ability to ban any form of carry. Is there anywhere you can get facts vs. speculation any opinion? What exactly does this proposed law state? Anyone know?

There is no proposed legislation or bill text right now, just speculation.

[boba]

For me, its not even about how often (if ever) I would choose to carry openly.

The point is: It is a right that was taken from us in the 1870's in Texas... and I want that RIGHT and as many others related to gun ownership/carry restored.... (and new ones introduced). Also, I EXPECT the organizations I support (NRA/TSRA and others)... to move in that direction (support and introduce pro-gun laws), as many as we can!

I don't think I will ever become a Roman Catholic, but I believe the First Amendment protects the religious freedom of people who want to practice Roman Catholicism.

[dominus]

I guess I'm falling into the CC camp. I think "outta sight, outta mind" works in our favor. If you start having a bunch of people cruising around Walmart with pistols exposed, people are gonna start calling Walmart and threatening to boycott. I think OC might work well in small towns or rural areas, but I live in the burbs amongst a lot of people with differing sensibilities to guns. It's also not hard to imagine more liberal cities wanting to ban carry altogether if they're forced into a corner.

[Oldgringo]

I guess I'm falling into the CC camp. I think "outta sight, outta mind" works in our favor. If you start having a bunch of people cruising around Walmart with pistols exposed, people are gonna start calling Walmart and threatening to boycott. I think OC might work well in small towns or rural areas, but I live in the burbs amongst a lot of people with differing sensibilities to guns. It's also not hard to imagine more liberal cities wanting to ban carry altogether if they're forced into a corner.

Very good, !

Look at the OC states and then look to the OC and CC laws in the cities within the OC states. What do you see? Our 2A rights notwithstanding, why would anyone want to OC to the grocery, church, whiskey store, etc., etc? Concealed is not only concealed, it's cool and it's not exhibitionistic, it's not provacative and it's not an attention grabber. Once again, we have it pretty good in Texas vis-a-vis CC. Let this sleeping dog lie, please.

Flamethrower time....bring 'em on. I can take it.

[boba]

I think "outta sight, outta mind" works in our favor. If you start having a bunch of people cruising around Walmart with tattoos exposed, people are gonna start calling Walmart and threatening to boycott. I think visible tattoos might work well in small towns or rural areas, but I live in the burbs amongst a lot of people with differing sensibilities to tattoos. It's also not hard to imagine less tolerant cities wanting to ban tattoos altogether if they're forced into a corner.

Fixed that for you.

[Right2Carry]

I think "outta sight, outta mind" works in our favor. If you start having a bunch of people cruising around Walmart with tattoos exposed, people are gonna start calling Walmart and threatening to boycott. I think visible tattoos might work well in small towns or rural areas, but I live in the burbs amongst a lot of people with differing sensibilities to tattoos. It's also not hard to imagine less tolerant cities wanting to ban tattoos altogether if they're forced into a corner.

Fixed that for you.

[flintknapper]

I guess I'm falling into the CC camp. I think "outta sight, outta mind" works in our favor. If you start having a bunch of people cruising around Walmart with pistols exposed, people are gonna start calling Walmart and threatening to boycott. I think OC might work well in small towns or rural areas, but I live in the burbs amongst a lot of people with differing sensibilities to guns. It's also not hard to imagine more liberal cities wanting to ban carry altogether if they're forced into a corner.

Very good, !

Look at the OC states and then look to the OC and CC laws in the cities within the OC states. What do you see? Our 2A rights notwithstanding, why would anyone want to OC to the grocery, church, whiskey store, etc., etc? Concealed is not only concealed, it's cool and it's not exhibitionistic, it's not provacative and it's not an attention grabber. Once again, we have it pretty good in Texas vis-a-vis CC. Let this sleeping dog lie, please.

Flamethrower time....bring 'em on. I can take it.

I guess gun owners that want to carry for protection will just have to keep "riding in the back of the bus".

[baldeagle]

I guess gun owners that want to carry for protection will just have to keep "riding in the back of the bus".

What in the world does this mean? No one is preventing you from carrying a weapon for self defense - unless you don't qualify under the law - and if that's the case, OC isn't going to change a thing for you.

[TLE2]

Just my "vote" but the parking lot bill and other legislation is higher on my list than OC.

I'm not opposed to open carry, just wish we could get a few other things through before we tackle that one.

[SA-TX]

Just my "vote" but the parking lot bill and other legislation is higher on my list than OC.

I'm not opposed to open carry, just wish we could get a few other things through before we tackle that one.

Perhaps l'm dreaming but I think we can do all 3. Campus Carry and employer parking are well-known to members and probably less controversial. I just don't see a big fight about these particularly with some liberty minded new members joining the ranks. Even as an OC supporter I've said many times that it isn't the top priority. The aforementioned two affect many Texans including me (my employer has a no weapons policy). The reason to start OC now is that some groundwork is laid for the future if it cannot pass this time.

SA-TX

[flintknapper]

Just my "vote" but the parking lot bill and other legislation is higher on my list than OC.

I'm not opposed to open carry, just wish we could get a few other things through before we tackle that one.

Both of the issues above are higher on my list as well, however....I still want the "ground work" for OC to begin. Thus far it has not (except at a grass roots level...) and there is no indication that the NRA or TSRA (the two factions that could really help) have any plans to do so.

There is a significant "public education" project that needs to be done PRIOR to any bills being introduced. I know this, they know this, we ALL know this......so just where is that "ground work", someone tell me?

I have no doubt....that funding is "tight" at both organizations and that priorities must always be set.

But....really, how hard/expensive could it be to simply "poll" the membership for their interest (or lack of).... instead of WAITING for the membership (which will rarely be more than 15%) to come to them with concerns.

IMO, much more can (and should) be done to start the "ground work"....so we can begin to take those "baby steps" everyone is so fond of reciting.

As for Campus Carry this session, MAYBE. There is very good argument for it, though it could be promoted more aggressively. Parking Lot issue, not a chance. Big business will crush that one, but I am encouraged that with public education...we can gain the support needed sometime in future.


Flint.

[flintknapper]

Baldeagle wrote:

What in the world does this mean?

Well Sir, I will tell you exactly what it means. It is a comment directed at those who are happy to leave things alone (as concerns CC and OC). The “out of sight, out of mind” mind group, who are willing to ride in the “back of the bus”. To be considered “Social Lepers” because they choose to arm themselves for the purposes of self defense.

Some are satisfied that we have managed to gain (in a quite provisional way) a “privilege” to replace a lost RIGHT (the lawful carry of a weapon in any manner you choose). They are not willing to fight to reinstate that RIGHT, but instead accept conditions as they are now…because it doesn’t involve any work or risk….and they wouldn’t OC anyway.

To be forced to “hide” your weapon (even though we are one of only seven States to require that), is to suggest that the majority of the public (and businesses) would have a negative reaction to it. I think this notion….sells the public short. If I am wrong….then we are indeed already “in the back of the bus” and relegated there until public perception is changed.

Currently….less than 2% of the State’s population possess a CHL. Less than that… carry on a regular basis. Fewer still…would opt to open carry, so it would remain a rarity (as is Concealed Carry). Yet we are to believe that this small segment of the population (spread across the State) will result in Soccer Moms fainting in the streets.... and businesses rushing to get up signs, etc…

I just don’t believe that. I think that careful preparation and a large scale effort to educate the public (prior to a bill being introduced) would be effective….even against a liberal media.

It has been rightly stated that 2% of the population does not represent a significant number to a Politian and that no inroads can be made… without some form of heavy lobbying. I agree, but I think that number ….is not the whole story.

That 2% figure completely ignores the rest of the population (98%)…..among whose numbers would be some percentage of supporters. It is wrong…to present the issue of OC as one that is a 2% vs. 98% contest. To claim otherwise is to say that the majority of Texans (and by default…businesses) have grave concerns over OC ( and probably CC except we hide it). If this is true, then we are most certainly “in the back of the bus” again.

No one is preventing you from carrying a weapon for self defense –

Correct, however my MODE of carry is clearly being dictated and restricted. Why would you NOT want choices? Why would you NOT want a lost right restored? Why would any gun owner NOT want to seek out as many pro-gun laws as we can get?

Unless such endeavors would be injurious to other laws (and shown to have a large degree of certainty) then WHY wouldn’t all gun owners be in support of something that strengthens our position and rights?

unless you don't qualify under the law - and if that's the case, OC isn't going to change a thing for you

.

I’m guessing “you” is used in its plural form here…..and not directed expressly at “me” since I have had my CHL since early 1996 and have a record as “squeaky clean” as anyone here, if not more so.

So, now that we have established that I am “qualified”, OC just might change things for me. Not the least of which would be the restoration of a long lost right in this State…. and an example for others to follow.

Thank you for your input….and if you need clarification on anything I’ve said here, please let me know, I am happy to discuss it.

Flint.

[dominus]

I do like the people from "deep east texas" saying that the public will be good with OC. That may be your reality, but it suburban Houston, not so much. People would freak. Not all, or even most, but enough to muck things up for us. I think the OC crowd is kinda like the PDA crowd. I don't have to make out with my wife in a cafe in front of everyone to prove my love. I also don't have to OC to show everyone I support my 2nd am. right. I do feel a bit naive that I didn't realize there was this big schism in the gun community. Where have I been?

[Charles L. Cotton]

Just my "vote" but the parking lot bill and other legislation is higher on my list than OC.

I'm not opposed to open carry, just wish we could get a few other things through before we tackle that one.

Perhaps l'm dreaming but I think we can do all 3. Campus Carry and employer parking are well-known to members and probably less controversial. I just don't see a big fight about these particularly with some liberty minded new members joining the ranks. Even as an OC supporter I've said many times that it isn't the top priority. The aforementioned two affect many Texans including me (my employer has a no weapons policy). The reason to start OC now is that some groundwork is laid for the future if it cannot pass this time.

SA-TX

Open-carry will not pass this session. Employer parking lots will pass this session. Campus-carry has a good chance of passing this session. Obviously, these are my predictions.

The entire business community and every business lobby will again oppose the employer parking lot bill, but they will not be able to kill it again. Brian McCall is gone and the next Calendar's Committee Chariman will understand the critical importance of getting both the employer parking lot and campus-carry bills to the House Floor for a vote. Employer parking lots have too much public and legislative support to kill it again, unless something extraordinary happens before the vote, or unless the Speaker of the House does not do his job.

Campus-carry has a good chance of passing because public opinion has swung in favor of it. At least three student government bodies have endorsed it, as has a police union for the Houston Police Dept. (HPD officers' support is huge and we should express our thanks!) Campus-carry has no large, organized opposition, but the universities and their big-money supporters will again try to kill the bill, or amend it to weaken it.

Although I disagree with virtually everything flintnapper said about open-carry and those of us who remember what actually happened Texas in 1995-1997, as opposed to OC supporters who theorize about what will happen, he is right about one thing. Open-carry will not pass unless the groundwork is done and that means beginning in July, 2011. There is no time to do what is necessary to pass a bill this session and certainly not a bill that will protect tremendous gains we have made in the last 20 years. Waiting to the 11th hour to start calling for groundwork and help in passing OC is like a farmer refusing to cultivate his land, sew the seed, tend the fields, then walking out his back door and wondering why there is no crop to harvest. Two years ago I said that OC supporters need to organize a Texas-based, Texas-only organization right then so they would do the necessary groundwork, but that call was ignored.. I renewed the call a the end of the 2009 Texas Legislative Session and it too was ignored. So here we are again about one month from the beginning of the 2011 session and we're watching reruns of the "You're With Us, or You're Against Us" sitcom.

I don't accept the current state of Texas gun laws. If I did, I would have quit working on the issue in 1995 when we passed SB60. I hope to see the day when all of Chp. 46 of the Texas Penal Code is repealed and we focus solely on prosecuting bad acts and not the tools a very small percentage of Texans misuse.

TSRA and NRA properly stayed out of the OC issue. OC is not and has not been an issue NRA or TSRA members want us to pursue, so we don't. This fact seems to really anger OC supporters and I cannot understand why. Do you really expect either organization to spend money and political capital on an issue that a very small minority of the Members support? (Remember also that some members are opposed to OC.) If so, I'd be very interested in hearing the justification for ignoring the will of our members. The NRA and RSRA represent the wishes of the Members who shoulder the financial burden of defending the Second Amendment. And if TSRA or NRA were to support OC, which flag should they fly -- licensed open-carry or unlicensed open-carry? OC supporters can't even reach a consensus on this very critical distinction.

I have never opposed OC and I have never taken a single step to thwart OC in Austin. In fact, I have offered suggestions for promoting and passing OC that have been ignored. If the membership of any organization I represent decides it wants OC to pass, then I will put aside my concerns and will work for its passage, making sure any bill that passes expands rather than narrows Texans' gun rights.

In my 61 years, I've been talked into doing or not doing a lot of things, but I've never been bullied into changing my mind.

Chas.