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cobber wrote:Interesting thread and very thought-provoking.

How does the AS scenario change when you throw one or more armed citizens into the equation?

Usually these seem to begin as a lone gunman leisurely strolling along, picking out his victims and executing them. But what happens when people start shooting at him (her?)?

I would think that driving the AS to cover is almost as good as taking him out. He can't be sure who is out there shooting at him. Are there documented cases where the AS simply continues his stroll even with incoming fire?

If he goes to ground, that gives people time to escape and the police to arrive. I would guess even a .22 is might be effective enough.

It's not necessarily about killing (or incapacitating), is it? Just changing the equation in favor of the good guys.

Historically, you are correct.

Confrontation with an armed GG (citizen or LEO) almost always immediately ends the portion of the incident where innocents are killed, whether the suspect is immediately incapacitated, commits suicide, or is forced into a contained position.

cobber wrote:Interesting thread and very thought-provoking.

How does the AS scenario change when you throw one or more armed citizens into the equation?

Usually these seem to begin as a lone gunman leisurely strolling along, picking out his victims and executing them. But what happens when people start shooting at him (her?)?

I would think that driving the AS to cover is almost as good as taking him out. He can't be sure who is out there shooting at him. Are there documented cases where the AS simply continues his stroll even with incoming fire?

If he goes to ground, that gives people time to escape and the police to arrive. I would guess even a .22 is might be effective enough.

It's not necessarily about killing (or incapacitating), is it? Just changing the equation in favor of the good guys.

anecdotal, but worth reading ... http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/ccw/tacoma_tyler.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ameer wrote:

cobber wrote:I would think that driving the AS to cover is almost as good as taking him out. He can't be sure who is out there shooting at him. Are there documented cases where the AS simply continues his stroll even with incoming fire?

Hollywood.

I'm not talking about the movies, although it happens there too. I'm talking about the Hollywood bank robbery.

Wow, this has been an incredible thread...certain to be of some educational value. In reference to the N. Hollywood shootout, I just don't feel that fits the "typical" (as if there could be such a thing) AS situation that folks have in mind. It seems that most folks are thinking about the "lone, crazed gunman" situation by and large, such as the recent Tucson tragedy, or the one at VA Tech. The N. Hollywood guys were fairly hardened criminals with a SERIOUS plan and the weaponry and equipment to give them the confidence that they could really pull it off. Obviously, it didn't turn out the way THEY wanted it to...but I still don't see that particular incident as "typical". YMMV, IANAL nor am I LEO or a soldier.

Heartland Patriot wrote:

Ameer wrote:

cobber wrote:I would think that driving the AS to cover is almost as good as taking him out. He can't be sure who is out there shooting at him. Are there documented cases where the AS simply continues his stroll even with incoming fire?

Hollywood.

I'm not talking about the movies, although it happens there too. I'm talking about the Hollywood bank robbery.

Wow, this has been an incredible thread...certain to be of some educational value. In reference to the N. Hollywood shootout, I just don't feel that fits the "typical" (as if there could be such a thing) AS situation that folks have in mind. It seems that most folks are thinking about the "lone, crazed gunman" situation by and large, such as the recent Tucson tragedy, or the one at VA Tech. The N. Hollywood guys were fairly hardened criminals with a SERIOUS plan and the weaponry and equipment to give them the confidence that they could really pull it off. Obviously, it didn't turn out the way THEY wanted it to...but I still don't see that particular incident as "typical". YMMV, IANAL nor am I LEO or a soldier.

I would agree.

This was not an active shooter incident with random victims. It was a shootout between heavily armed and armored bandits and responding law enforcement officers. Although it met the standard for an active shooter incident, it was far from typical for either armed robberies or active shooter incidents in civilian settings in the U.S.

A-R wrote:anecdotal, but worth reading ... http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/ccw/tacoma_tyler.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I know of someone who now keeps an underfolding Yugo AK in his truck because of the Tyler incident. He never wants to be in the terrible situation of bringing a pistol to a rifle fight. If it weren't for a fear of theft, I'd likely follow suit.

...the Bible says "Greater love has no man than that he lay down his life for his friends." That's not talking about suicide, that's talking about putting others before yourself...in little and big ways...most of us who've been in military or police work have already done that in our decision-making process...and it's settled...we won't/can't just sit there, run, or hide while folks are being shot like fish in a barrel...if there's anything we can do to stop it, we will...that's not faulting someone who has decided differently...I think it was attributed to Orwell: "People sleep peaceably in their beds because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." it's always been that way...
...personally, if I'm somewhere having a nice day and an active shooter situation arises, all that is in me will do all that I can do with all that I have at my disposal.................to make the AS the "greatest lover" of all time.....

Marines are trained to locate, close with and destroy the enemy. If armed, I'm pretty sure I'd revert back to training and engage. If unarmed... not exactly sure what I'd do. Either way, I'm certain that I'd need to change my drawers after. Hope to God I never have to find out.