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jimandyen wrote:Thanks for the reply gemini. Just wondering. One fear I have if I was in that situation (or another similar) would be where the bullet ends up. My wife and I go over different bad guy situations and then change what the background would be to see if we would make the same decisions. I guess more training on my part would help but I wonder sometimes if I would hesitate because of that. Am I alone in these thoughts..?

No, you're not alone. I think about background all the time when I'm out and about. It's not that it is always at the forefront of my mind, but rather that I catch myself doing it, and realize that I've been doing it all along. Part of the reason for that is that as part of just being generally aware of my surroundings, I am always looking for "what doesn't fit"—meaning whatever doesn't belong in the picture. It's going to be 103 in Grapevine today, and the "low" tonight will be 80º......so that guy slouching around over there with his face hidden in a black hoodie is something that "doesn't fit" the picture. But that general scanning also takes in the rest of what is in the background.

And certainly, whatever was there would have a profound influence on whether or not I would shoot, and how I would shoot if shooting was the right response.

jimandyen wrote:Thanks for the reply gemini. Just wondering. One fear I have if I was in that situation (or another similar) would be where the bullet ends up. My wife and I go over different bad guy situations and then change what the background would be to see if we would make the same decisions. I guess more training on my part would help but I wonder sometimes if I would hesitate because of that. Am I alone in these thoughts..?

I was shooting "uphill". Backstop was parkway grass, lawn terraces and sidewalk.I don't know if I can explain this, but, your mind or eye takes all this in..... meaning, you are totally concentrated on BG while still being aware of backstop or other movement in your focus field of vision. My shot was reflex in response to his action. And we're talking a decision being made from that info in a fraction of a second. As stated in OP; I was in low ready with one hand.
Had I had proper grip with pistol in ready position, I'm sure this event would have had an entirely different ending.

Continue training. Only you can decide under what scenario you will be willing to shoot / not shoot. (within the law)

I agree.
It's always a good thing to be aware of one's surroundings. Being relatively new to this (CHL and the laws)
and not having any formal training I had another question of gemini or anyone else in the know.

Gemini said he had "tunnel vision" on the bad guy during the incident. Is that good?
How do special training schools or police prepare for this?

I understand you have to be focused and there are a lot of what ifs.
(Ex...An accomplice, A helpful neighbor with his gun, background, bystanders etc.)
Again not trying to judge just understand.

jimandyen wrote:I agree.
It's always a good thing to be aware of one's surroundings. Being relatively new to this (CHL and the laws)
and not having any formal training I had another question of gemini or anyone else in the know.

Gemini said he had "tunnel vision" on the bad guy during the incident. Is that good?
How do special training schools or police prepare for this?

I understand you have to be focused and there are a lot of what ifs.
(Ex...An accomplice, A helpful neighbor with his gun, background, bystanders etc.)
Again not trying to judge just understand.

Sorry, I have to make this quick because I have to go back to work. If you have time (maybe 5 seconds or more?)
you might start scanning your surroundings. A lot of variables involved in every situation. Inside, outside, time of day
or night, well lit, dark, multiple BG's, distance, available cover, your own abilities, your own training level, your own confidence
level, etc etc etc. All would play into your response.

jimandyen wrote:I agree.
It's always a good thing to be aware of one's surroundings. Being relatively new to this (CHL and the laws)
and not having any formal training I had another question of gemini or anyone else in the know.

Gemini said he had "tunnel vision" on the bad guy during the incident. Is that good?
How do special training schools or police prepare for this?

I understand you have to be focused and there are a lot of what ifs.
(Ex...An accomplice, A helpful neighbor with his gun, background, bystanders etc.)
Again not trying to judge just understand.

It's not a matter of "good" or "bad." Tunnel vision is a byproduct of the adrenaline dump, and very likely it is unavoidable for most people. I've never been in combat, but I would imagine that soldiers/marines who have seen enough combat that they don't experience the same ferocity of adrenaline surge as an inexperience civilian would have—or who are under fire for such a long period that the response wears off—stop experiencing tunnel vision under battle stress at some point. But for most of us, particularly those of us who have never been under fire in anger or who never have been fractions of seconds away from pulling the trigger on someone, that adrenaline dump is probably the norm, and tunnel vision is a normal part of that dump.

Edited to add: Certainly the more frequent and realistic your training regimen, the less likely you are to experience that dump so dramatically when the real deal happens. You'll just default to your level of training........which for old farts with not much money like me is kind of scary, because we don't have either the ducats or the physical capacity to train like that.

The Annoyed Man wrote:

jimandyen wrote:I agree.
It's always a good thing to be aware of one's surroundings. Being relatively new to this (CHL and the laws)
and not having any formal training I had another question of gemini or anyone else in the know.

Gemini said he had "tunnel vision" on the bad guy during the incident. Is that good?
How do special training schools or police prepare for this?

I understand you have to be focused and there are a lot of what ifs.
(Ex...An accomplice, A helpful neighbor with his gun, background, bystanders etc.)
Again not trying to judge just understand.

It's not a matter of "good" or "bad." Tunnel vision is a byproduct of the adrenaline dump, and very likely it is unavoidable for most people. I've never been in combat, but I would imagine that soldiers/marines who have seen enough combat that they don't experience the same ferocity of adrenaline surge as an inexperience civilian would have—or who are under fire for such a long period that the response wears off—stop experiencing tunnel vision under battle stress at some point. But for most of us, particularly those of us who have never been under fire in anger or who never have been fractions of seconds away from pulling the trigger on someone, that adrenaline dump is probably the norm, and tunnel vision is a normal part of that dump.

Edited to add: Certainly the more frequent and realistic your training regimen, the less likely you are to experience that dump so dramatically when the real deal happens. You'll just default to your level of training........which for old farts with not much money like me is kind of scary, because we don't have either the ducats or the physical capacity to train like that.

Similar to tunnel vision, as a teenager, I realized about halfway through the football season in school that I entirely lost my sense of hearing as soon as each play started in the game; I got it back as soon as each play was over. It didn't happen in practice. This is actually fairly common.

I've always assumed that some similar phenomenons might happen to me in a true life-or-death adrenaline-pumping situation involving a firearm.

Ditto that training can make your reflexes work FOR you so that you can REACT according to decisions you've made previously instead of timidly DEBATE what to do in your mind.

Thank you for the good explanations. One of the reasons I'm glad I joined this forum.

The Annoyed Man wrote:
Edited to add: Certainly the more frequent and realistic your training regimen, the less likely you are to experience that dump so dramatically when the real deal happens. You'll just default to your level of training........which for old farts with not much money like me is kind of scary, because we don't have either the ducats or the physical capacity to train like that.

@The Annoyed Man,

Oh and I wouldn't be too hard on yourself in that "old fart" department as I think your level of wisdom and experience gained through the years have taught you things more valuable than a classroom or money that you have shared with us on this forum.

Wellll, since this has been re-opened, I re-read all of the earlier posts and came across this:

gigag04 wrote:Did you call a lawyer before talking to the cops?

I have to ask: Should you call a cop before you talk to a lawyer?


well, i thought it was funny

+1.. First hand accounts are always useful for "what would I do" consideration. Thanks for sharing.

Could not have said it better ... THANKS for the post!

The Annoyed Man wrote:It's not a matter of "good" or "bad." Tunnel vision is a byproduct of the adrenaline dump, and very likely it is unavoidable for most people.

It happens in most extreme stress situations; the brain picks what it perceives to be the most important thing to look at and then blocks out anything else to maintain concentration there. That's why most defensive training includes forcing yourself to scan as soon as that threat is dealt with.

http://www.amazon.com/Combat-Psychology ... 0964920514" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; explains tunnel vision, auditory exclusion and other intense stress effects very well.

The Annoyed Man wrote:Edited to add: Certainly the more frequent and realistic your training regimen, the less likely you are to experience that dump so dramatically when the real deal happens. You'll just default to your level of training........which for old farts with not much money like me is kind of scary, because we don't have either the ducats or the physical capacity to train like that.

Yeah, but we make up for it with grumpiness and itchy trigger fingers.

baldeagle wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:Edited to add: Certainly the more frequent and realistic your training regimen, the less likely you are to experience that dump so dramatically when the real deal happens. You'll just default to your level of training........which for old farts with not much money like me is kind of scary, because we don't have either the ducats or the physical capacity to train like that.

Yeah, but we make up for it with grumpiness and itchy trigger fingers.

We also don't have as much adrenaline to dump and more practice at handling it when it happens.

Then there is that old saw, "Old and devious beats young and strong". Or something similar.

Age and treachery beats youth and vigor?

I'd venture that the youth of today are better versed in treachery than previous generations though...

I have followed this thread with interest and thought about replying more than I have a number of times, but kept my mouth shut.

Yes, the law states that one can legally do what the OP states that he has done.

So I have pondered this entire incident over and over and still come to the same conclusion. The BG was stopped in the middle of a commission of a crime and ran. I simply don't understand the need to attempt to shoot him. In my mind there is no such thing as a warning-shot. If one shoots at somebody, you are shooting to kill them. So I am not sure what the OP's intent was when he fired.

If this guy was surprised, turned around and made any single gesture, furtive movement or had flinched, I would have shot. But as I read this the BG "partially turned towards me", and thats it, he ran.

/I had to get this one off of my chest.

...for a theft...with no intrusion into my home, no threat or harm to another, no evidence of a weapon...I agree...nothing in my truck or yard is worth a life...same when I worked in a pawn shop...if they snatched it and ran...911 and describe them well...the second he shows aggression, the game's over...but a thief I won't shoot...the one exception being if he's stolen a gun and so is armed...

...there are no warning shots in my world...there are warnings and there are shots...under no circumstances will I discharge a weapon without intending to stop the person or animal I am facing...