not allowing students with weapons to attend his classe

[chasfm11]

I think that all this maligning, insulting and outright libel of Professor Krause is beginning to show widespread immaturity. He is a brilliant professor, who had his latest book, just released, reviewed by the Times just yesterday. There are not many who can write a biography of Richard Feynman, much less understand Feynman's genius, or his field, quantum electrodynamics theory, even a little bit.

This thread reminded me of the review I read yesterday, I ordered the book from Amazon a few minutes ago, and I received it less than a minute later. I am sure that most of you, being Texans, remember Feynman, the guy who rescued the space shuttle program by just sitting down and thinking.

Elmo

(Edited to spell Richard Feynman's name correctly, thanks to a perceptive reader).

I'm not sure that I understand immature in this context. Assuming that I'm guilty of it, I'll have to "double down" and remove all doubt.

The professor is probably a brilliant man. I offer my respect to the area of his brilliance. I do not offer my respect for his apparent willingness to use his position and intellect to the detriment of others. His is a learned man, a scholar but he is not omnipotent.
Please allow me to offer some parallels.

Mayor Bloomburg is a wealthy man. My hat is off to him for his financial success. He is the mayor of NYC and a powerful politician. His position as mayor deserves my respect. His is also an anti-gun jerk. He has elected to use his power a mayor of a city in a State, where I choose not to live because of its intolerable policies and ridiculous taxes, to send his minions to Texas on the subject of guns, in an apparent effort to subvert our situation to meet his anti-gun vision. While I respect his right to his personal opinion and his ability to use his "bully pulpit" as Mayor to rail against guns, he needs to confine his activities. He can work with his city counsel to pass all of the laws that they want to pass to subjugate his electorate. As long as they keep electing him, they deserve what they get. He has no more right in Texas that I do, just because he has money or is mayor of NYC. His is not omnipotent either.

I'm a trained educator. I taught in the public schools and hold a permanent certification to teach in Pennsylvania. Preparing for my teaching career, I studied under many brilliant professors whose accomplishments I will never be able to match. One of them, a voice instructor, believed that part of his control over me as his student allowed him to touch me inappropriately. It didn't. Regardless of his achievements in his field, he was bound by the same laws as everyone else but he got away with it by exercising what he believed to be his omnipotence. I was able to gain separation from him without destroying my career and getting expelled from the institution. It was extremely difficult for me because he was the head of the department. If I were in the same situation today, I'd have him arrested but that really wasn't an option for me then. I believe that abuse of one's power is an educational setting is heinous.

The world has been blessed to have many brilliant, gifted men and women. Many of them have enriched our lives in ways that we barely understand and most certainly don't fully appreciate. I firmly believe, however, that intelligence and talent are gifts from God to be shared with others, not used as a club to subjugate them. Based on my own experience, far too many in the education field, from our regular public schools to our colleges and universities do not agree with me. Omnipotence reigns.

I freely admit that I may be overly sensitive to situations where I believe educators are given far too much latitude and have little or no accountability. I have what I believe is solid evidence that such situations do exist. You can think of it as a condition yellow which goes quickly to condition orange when the circumstances seem to support it. If that makes me immature, I'll accept that label.

[Oldgringo]

I think that all this maligning, insulting and outright libel of Professor Krause is beginning to show widespread immaturity. He is a brilliant professor, who had his latest book, just released, reviewed by the Times just yesterday. There are not many who can write a biography of Richard Feynman, much less understand Feynman's genius, or his field, quantum electrodynamics theory, even a little bit.

This thread reminded me of the review I read yesterday, I ordered the book from Amazon a few minutes ago, and I received it less than a minute later. I am sure that most of you, being Texans, remember Feynman, the guy who rescued the space shuttle program by just sitting down and thinking.

Elmo

(Edited to spell Richard Feynman's name correctly, thanks to a perceptive reader).

I'm not sure that I understand immature in this context. Assuming that I'm guilty of it, I'll have to "double down" and remove all doubt.

The professor is probably a brilliant man. I offer my respect to the area of his brilliance. I do not offer my respect for his apparent willingness to use his position and intellect to the detriment of others. His is a learned man, a scholar but he is not omnipotent.
Please allow me to offer some parallels.

Mayor Bloomburg is a wealthy man. My hat is off to him for his financial success. He is the mayor of NYC and a powerful politician. His position as mayor deserves my respect. His is also an anti-gun jerk. He has elected to use his power a mayor of a city in a State, where I choose not to live because of its intolerable policies and ridiculous taxes, to send his minions to Texas on the subject of guns, in an apparent effort to subvert our situation to meet his anti-gun vision. While I respect his right to his personal opinion and his ability to use his "bully pulpit" as Mayor to rail against guns, he needs to confine his activities. He can work with his city counsel to pass all of the laws that they want to pass to subjugate his electorate. As long as they keep electing him, they deserve what they get. He has no more right in Texas that I do, just because he has money or is mayor of NYC. His is not omnipotent either.

I'm a trained educator. I taught in the public schools and hold a permanent certification to teach in Pennsylvania. Preparing for my teaching career, I studied under many brilliant professors whose accomplishments I will never be able to match. One of them, a voice instructor, believed that part of his control over me as his student allowed him to touch me inappropriately. It didn't. Regardless of his achievements in his field, he was bound by the same laws as everyone else but he got away with it by exercising what he believed to be his omnipotence. I was able to gain separation from him without destroying my career and getting expelled from the institution. It was extremely difficult for me because he was the head of the department. If I were in the same situation today, I'd have him arrested but that really wasn't an option for me then. I believe that abuse of one's power is an educational setting is heinous.

The world has been blessed to have many brilliant, gifted men and women. Many of them have enriched our lives in ways that we barely understand and most certainly don't fully appreciate. I firmly believe, however, that intelligence and talent are gifts from God to be shared with others, not used as a club to subjugate them. Based on my own experience, far too many in the education field, from our regular public schools to our colleges and universities do not agree with me. Omnipotence reigns.

I freely admit that I may be overly sensitive to situations where I believe educators are given far too much latitude and have little or no accountability. I have what I believe is solid evidence that such situations do exist. You can think of it as a condition yellow which goes quickly to condition orange when the circumstances seem to support it. If that makes me immature, I'll accept that label.

Well said!

A jerk by any other name is still a jerk.

[The Annoyed Man]

I think the professor has an interesting point, and it might be one we need to consider for Texas' campus carry laws. As a general rule, the professor controls his classroom, much like the judge controls his courtroom. He can make rules on such thinks as skateboards or calculators or cell phones. The question of weapons has not yet come up because they were generally banned on campus, both by the law and by the school rules.

I agree. An interesting precedent would be whether a restaurant may refuse to serve a police officer who is legally carrying. Obviously the police officer is legally allowed to carry, but does that place a duty on a restaurant to serve them? I think there was something about this in the San Antonio area but I can't find the details.

But again, the restaurant owner has the legal right to give proper notice to someone he wants to leave. He's the property owner. Also, he can post a 30.06 sign.

If the restaurant has a no guns policy, then the restaurant owner's employee can give the CHLer proper notice by proxy.

But a professor in a state owned university has no property rights in the classroom, other than over his personal property. And if the campus, being government owned cannot post 30.06, and campus carry passes, then the professor is out of luck. All he can do is live with the fact of it—just like CHLers have had to do until now.

[Oldgringo]

I think the professor has an interesting point, and it might be one we need to consider for Texas' campus carry laws. As a general rule, the professor controls his classroom, much like the judge controls his courtroom. He can make rules on such thinks as skateboards or calculators or cell phones. The question of weapons has not yet come up because they were generally banned on campus, both by the law and by the school rules.

I agree. An interesting precedent would be whether a restaurant may refuse to serve a police officer who is legally carrying. Obviously the police officer is legally allowed to carry, but does that place a duty on a restaurant to serve them? I think there was something about this in the San Antonio area but I can't find the details.

But again, the restaurant owner has the legal right to give proper notice to someone he wants to leave. He's the property owner. Also, he can post a 30.06 sign.

If the restaurant has a no guns policy, then the restaurant owner's employee can give the CHLer proper notice by proxy.

But a professor in a state owned university has no property rights in the classroom, other than over his personal property. And if the campus, being government owned cannot post 30.06, and campus carry passes, then the professor is out of luck. All he can do is live with the fact of it—just like CHLers have had to do until now.

Just as CH licensees can decide where they shop, the professors can seek employment elsewhere when campus carry passes. Then we'll see how valuable their priniciples/convictions are when stacked against their pensions.

[mreavis]

This argument loses all validity to me when I start reading "my class/classroom". My mother was a teacher and a school counselor for 18 years. I understand teachers don't get paid enough for what they do and often work much harder than anyone thinks. With that being said, it is not the teachers class or classroom. It is the state/cities/society/students class and classroom. Teachers did not provide this classroom, they are an employee of an organization. You can tell a kid not to bring his skateboard to class because there is no reason to have one. It is nothing but a distraction and we are not here to skateboard. But as one of my educators of higher thought process, please do not compare that to a handgun one carries for self defense. They are two totally different ideas and items. It is not your classroom or class, you are the teacher. It is our classroom and class: and if we as a society choose to allow legal firearm carry for self defense you can either deal with it or find a new job in another facility with a weapon ban. Or even teach from your home? I just don't understand how one justifies the right of a employee educator to make a call like that in a public room on a university that is just as much mine by right as it is his.

[WildBill]

This argument loses all validity to me when I start reading "my class/classroom".

This is an interesting point. It reminds me of judges referring to "my courtroom" or "in my court".

[Barbi Q]

There are many sportswriters but few if any are qualified to be starting quarterback at the Super Bowl.

[GEM-Texas]

Knowing something about the higher-ed business.

1. A prof has no right or mandate to exclude a student on a whim. You would have to document a real cause of action with appropriate higher-ups. So the threat is laughable.

2. It has been brought up several times that current excellent profs would flee TX if these bills would pass or TX could not hire new excellent profs. However, I've yet to see a quality study that indicates this is true. It has been said by those opposed to the bills without evidence.

For junior professors or new hires - the job market is so bleak in some fields, that one would have to be an idiot to turn down a job at UT Austin, A and M, U of H, Rice, Trinity, etc. over this (true - Rice and Trinity aren't covered). Even turning down a lesser ranked job at UT El Paso, UTSA, Texas State etc. would be ridiculous - if the job was good and TX itself was acceptable (independent of the bill issue).

My casual conversations with established profs and new ones indicate that they would not flee the state, even if they don't like the bill. It's the economy - stupid.

So the original prof is ridiculous and the threat of losing good folks is ridiculous.

[WildBill]

Knowing something about the higher-ed business.

So the original prof is ridiculous and the threat of losing good folks is ridiculous.

The same with students choosing another Texas university "public" versus "private" or moving to another state based on CHL laws.

[OldSchool]

I think that all this maligning, insulting and outright libel of Professor Krause is beginning to show widespread immaturity. He is a brilliant professor, who had his latest book, just released, reviewed by the Times just yesterday. There are not many who can write a biography of Richard Feynman, much less understand Feynman's genius, or his field, quantum electrodynamics theory, even a little bit.

This thread reminded me of the review I read yesterday, I ordered the book from Amazon a few minutes ago, and I received it less than a minute later. I am sure that most of you, being Texans, remember Feynman, the guy who rescued the space shuttle program by just sitting down and thinking.

Elmo

(Edited to spell Richard Feynman's name correctly, thanks to a perceptive reader).

Actually, I think the best Feynman bio by far is Feynman's own books (on my shelf right now). They relate his viewpoint perfectly (often too perfectly).
And I really can't agree that Feynman "single-handedly" saved the program....

Personally, I have the opposite viewpoint, which guides me: The students are the customers, they're paying the bills (even if they have no choice in the particulars). If I discover they are doing something illegal, I have to follow department rules -- but it is also against department rules for me to investigate anything other than plagiarism.

Actually, I would welcome CHL holders (of course, it helps knowing personally a whole slew of CHL holders). I have nothing to fear from my students (of which I am aware ), and the reason for CHL is the unexpected "disruption" to a person's safety. A CHL background check is a pretty good indication of stability. it's those who can't pass CHL background checks who worry me....

For reasons that should be clear, given the current political climate, I won't relate the number of instructors I know who have their CHL (and it ain't zero).
Same with fellow employees in my job #1, I might add, which is even more sensitive politically.

[OldSchool]

Brilliant theoretical scientists are sometimes missing common sense.

Gee, thanks....

[WildBill]

Actually, I think the best Feynman bio by far is Feynman's own books (on my shelf right now). They relate his viewpoint perfectly (often too perfectly).

For those folks who want to know what they have been missing:
http://www.feynmanlectures.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[mreavis]

I think the professor has an interesting point, and it might be one we need to consider for Texas' campus carry laws. As a general rule, the professor controls his classroom, much like the judge controls his courtroom. He can make rules on such thinks as skateboards or calculators or cell phones. The question of weapons has not yet come up because they were generally banned on campus, both by the law and by the school rules.

See, with all due respect I completely disagree with that line of thought in the first place. While I agree with the that feeling you get from teachers and judges I don't think it is valid. Teachers and judges come to a state/society/general publics facility to preform a service and be paid for it. It is a job. While they do deserve our upmost respect they do not own or reign over these physical locations. I as a tax payer and student pay FOR school. I give money to the shcool to provide things for me, not get paid to be there. If the class room has to belong to any one entity it is the students. While I personally believe it belongs to the society, either way it sure as crap is not under the sole rule of the teacher or judge. They are preforming a duty they are paid for and do not get to dictate their compliance with societies systems of law for carrying a gun.

[apostate]

Actually, I think the best Feynman bio by far is Feynman's own books (on my shelf right now). They relate his viewpoint perfectly (often too perfectly).

For those folks who want to know what they have been missing:
http://www.feynmanlectures.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Feynman Lectures on Physics are classic but I think "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!" (and/or "What Do You Care What Other People Think?") would give a better perspective on Feynman as a person. The story of Feynman as a pickup artist is rather amusing.

[tacticool]

I think that all this maligning, insulting and outright libel of Professor Krause

Truth is a defense to libel.