Open-Carry Poll

[stevie_d_64]

Maybe we should remind people why OC was taken away in the first place (too many carpetbaggers shot after the war), and then we can argue that "carpetbaggers" are no longer an issue, so there is no longer a need for the law.

[KBCraig]

Just as an aside, most people (pro-, anti-, and neutral) are surprised to learn that open carry is illegal in Texas. They're doubly surprised to learn this is not a recent thing, but that it's been that way since Reconstruction.

They're surprised, because they're certain they recall seeing people carry openly in the past, and will usually tell you about their daddy, granddaddy, uncle, old guy on the edge of town, hunters, cowboys, etc., etc.,... who wore cowboy rigs on a regular basis. (They might be wrong, but they think this.)

Think of the advice we give new carriers who are worried about printing: most people wouldn't notice your gun if you had it duct-taped to your forehead.

Kevin

[Charles L. Cotton]

Texas population: Approx. 22,000,000
Number over 21: Approx. 14,000,000
Number of CHL's: 258,165

Ratio of eligible population to CHL's: 54 to 1.
Ratio of total population to CHL's: 85 to 1.

We're grossly outnumbered and a minuscule number of us, relatively speaking, open-carrying aren't going to force a huge majority to accept anything. What we'll do is wake a sleeping giant.

Remember folks, this is a hypothetical question asking you to presume open-carry would result in widespread posting of 30.06 signs. The goal is to see how many people would be willing to sacrifice our ability to carry in vast numbers of businesses that currently don't post 30.06 signs.

Chas.

IMO, this presumes the "huge majority" is either anti-gun or would be so intimidated by anyone they knew to be in possession of one, that it would result in your hypothesis. I just don't think this is the case (in this state).

I believe the percentage of Texans who are anti-gun is very small. However, I don’t believe anti-gun sentiment is necessary for the backlash I fear to occur. CHL has become a non-issue for two reasons. First, because the statute has been a huge success and CHL holders are far less likely to commit any index crime than is the general population in Texas. In short, CHL’s have a great track record. Secondly, the general public never thinks about us not only because of our great track record, but also because they never see us carrying our guns. 258,000 Texans are legally carrying guns that are never seen.

I am also convinced that anti-gun sentiment in 1995 and 1996 represented a very small portion of the general population in Texas. However, beginning with the signing of SB60 on May 26, 1995, the now infamous “ghost-busters� no-guns signs were popping up on businesses like crabgrass. Were it not for the BOMA convention in Houston and their letter recommending against posting of “no-gun� signs, the problem would have grown exponentially. In my view, this was a watershed event for CHL’s. Without the BOMA letter, we would have been fighting this issue for years. While BOMA did affect the decision making of large real estate owners and management companies, that organization had little impact on small businesses that continued to post “ghost-busters� signs in ever-increasing numbers.

By the end of 1996, it was clear that the blood-in-the-streets predictions of our opponents had not come true. However, CHL’s had only been issued since January 1st of that year, so the anti-gunners were saying, “just wait, it’s coming.� In the 1997 Legislative Session, HB2909 was passed to deal with a number of CHL issues, not the least of which was the “ghost-buster� decals that were numerous and often very difficult to see. This was the bill that established TPC §30.06 and the “30.06 sign.� For the first time since Gov. Bush signed SB60 on May 26, 1995, we saw a decrease (a huge one) in the number of businesses posting enforceable (i.e. 30.06 compliant) no-guns signs. Even then, a number of businesses posted 30.06 signs, but many soon came down not because the owners had a sudden change of heart, but because the sign was really big and ugly! (This, by the way, was by design.) As time went on, the blood-in-the-streets crowd and their predictions were proven to be unfounded. People didn’t see anything different in their lives both because violent crime actually went down and because CHL’s guns were not visible.

All the things in the preceding paragraphs occurred in an atmosphere that was very pro-gun. The media as a whole did it’s very best to foster fear and aid the anti-gunners and it worked well enough for over two years to prompt numerous businesses to post ghost-busters decals. It was not a change of heart that stopped the flow of no-guns signs, but a change in the law. Of course it would be different now, because of eleven years of a very successful CHL program. (But I am convinced that very few people outside the CHL community are aware of our exemplary track record.) However, open-carry would cost us one of the two reasons why citizens-carrying-guns has become a non-issue, anonymity. People in the grocery store, Home Depot, church, city parks and everywhere else we go never see our guns, so they never give CHL a second thought. With open-carry this would change.

The media would again be an ally of anti-gunners. Reporters with cameramen in tow would be scouring the malls, public libraries and school parking lots looking for people carrying guns. I can just imagine a reporter’s diatribe against guns that would accompany a news video of school children waiting for a bus with someone carrying a pistol walking behind them. Or how about a video of a mother scurrying her children away from one of us at a Home Depot or perhaps a Barnes & Noble? Do we really think a business manager would hesitate to post a 30.06 sign? (If open-carry were to pass, then TPC §30.06 would be amended to allow a property owner to prohibit open-carry as well.)

I know many people feel that the experience of other states that allow open-carry is a good predictor of what would happen in Texas. I cannot accept that argument. I think comparing a state that has had open-carry for a long time to Texas which has outlawed open-carry since the 1870's is invalid. In current open-carry states, people are already used to it and have been for decades, perhaps even since the 1800's. In Texas, this would be a significant change and people would be seeing something no Texan has seen since about 1875. I don’t think we can discount this distinction. (Does anyone know of a state that only recently allowed open-carry? That might be a better predictor.)

I have admitted in at least one other thread on open-carry that my concerns may be unfounded. However, they are based upon our experience in the early days of CHL as well as a well-founded mistrust of what the media will do with this issue. I hope open-carry supporters will also admit that they may be wrong about the reaction we may see from businesses, but I’m yet to see such an admission. If I am wrong and open-carry never passes in Texas then what do we lose? We lose the ability to carry openly when we choose or when it would be far more convenient, such as during Texas’ hot summers. We will still be able to carry almost everywhere we go, but we won’t be able to carry our guns openly. If open-carry supporters are wrong, what will we lose? We will lose the ability to carry openly or concealed in many businesses that currently don’t post 30.06 signs. I don’t think open-carry would result in wholesale changes of Texas’ gun laws, but I would not be surprised to see places like churches, hospitals and nursing homes once again off-limits even without a 30.06 sign. If even one or two CHL’s are seen or photographed open-carrying in a school parking lot or walkway, then you can bet the definition of “premises� will be amended to include everything on the school grounds.

I received an email from someone who asked if I would oppose open-carry if the TSRA or the NRA supported an open-carry bill. The answer is an emphatic “no.� I am giving purely my personal opinions and concerns. If, after deliberation and debate, the decision is made to support open-carry, then I will work for it’s passage just as diligently as I did all of the CHL bills and the “clean-up� bills. I’ll do so thinking that we’d better be careful what we wish for, but I’m a good soldier and I’ll fight the battle I’m given. (I also would not oppose an open-carry bill promoted by one of the open-carry groups in Texas.)

I realize that I am in the minority on the open-carry issue, at least with the TexasCHLforum community. In my view, the risks far outweigh the benefits of making such a dramatic change in the law. (Perhaps it would have less impact after car-carry by non-CHL's has been on the books a while.) All I ask open-carry supporters to do is at least consider that we could see a backlash from the business community, and to a lesser degree from the Legislature. If open-carry ever does pass in Texas, I hope you folks are saying “I told you so,� rather than the other way around. I truly want to be wrong on this issue - I just don’t believe I am.

Chas.

[Mithras61]

Charles,

I, for one, will admit that the backlash might come as you fear. I personally don't think it will, but I've been wrong on stuff before, especially when it comes to how people would react to legislation.

I tend to expect people to act rationally, and yet (as was noted in "Men in Black") individuals are rational but people are panicky, dangerous animals. If group-think sets in against carrying, then there is no telling what insanities may ensue because of it.

[kw5kw]

Charles,
You offer a very poignant argument, however, I feel that there will be so few of us who will carry openly to church, to home depot or to the grocery store on a 'regular' basis that your fears will be prove to be greatly exaggerated.

For the few that might carry openly, I feel that they won't be treated any differently than what we see already when a DPS trooper, a Texas Ranger or a local LEO carries while in plainclothes. They don't envoke any panic in the street and the only difference is that they will have a badge somewhere... a badge that we won't have... and at times you have to look to find said badge. I don't see people running out of Wal-Mart because my local sheriff deputy walks in and his badge is on his belt and not on his shirt.

Many of us just wish to pull up to the gas pump and pump gas without wearing that 511 vest in 110 degree heat (125 degree heat index) that says the same thing: "I have a gun under here, else, I wouldn't be wearing this vest."

I feel that any animosity over this will be ephemeral and then we'll laugh over it while we both OPENLY admire each others Bar-B-Que guns.


Russ

[stevie_d_64]

Charles...

I believe your opinions and concerns are extremely valid...And I agree with them...

Think about this...If ever an OC amendment or bill came up, I would actually think it would be proper to offer as an olive branch to the deal, a modification (as much as I will be flame broiled for this) to allow businesses that do not want to have OC in their establishments the ability to post just for that...And if you have a CHL, to be allowed to carry anyway, just modify your mode of dress while conducting business in those establishments...

We do this anyway now...

That way I can keep my collection of very stylish Hawaiian shirts I love so much...

[stevie_d_64]

Just one more thing...(yeah right)...

If I were to compile a list of businesses and facilities that would likely restrict (if they are allowed to), I would certainly come up with a long list...

But one thing kinda popped into my mind here, and it put me in the place of a young lady who was dining at Luby's years ago and watched her mother and father be murdered before her eyes...

If the purpose of our carrying is to be a possible answer/counter to that type of criminal act, I am willing to accept and do so concealed, openly or any other way I can...Of course how I do it (to me) is beside the point...

And the message it sends to others, is not that I believe we will be the "tactical" choice for a criminal to take out if they see us first...I believe it should be more to the effect that you better think (I know that is a stretch for a criminal in some cases) twice about hitting some place where there are people ready and willing to defend themselves at the drop of a hat...

Openly or Concealed...It is one more thing someone else will have to think about...And I want them worried about that more than how they are going to get away with a crime...They may decide not to do it...But I won't count on or assume anything at that point...

Sometimes I tend to paint with a broad stroke, but I do not believe the painting is offensive...

[nitrogen]

You know what I would honestly settle for?

I'd settle for Intentional Failure to conceal to become an infraction, unless the failure to conceal was used in some type of threat or force scenario. (i.e. checking my pistol in the bathroom and someone happens to walk in, freaks out and calls the police means I get a $10 ticket. Pulling up my cover garment during an argument should be handled like it is now.)

Any downside to that?

[Charles L. Cotton]

BTW, I want to point out something that I believe is indicative of the folks who make up TexasCHLforum. This is a interesting subject with very strong opinions and emotions on either side of the issue. (I just feel like Travis at the Alamo. ) In spite of this, the discussions and debate has been very respectful to everyone involved; not one time have we seen a personal attack or a slur toward anyone. Thanks again for making TexasCHLforum what it is today.

Chas.

[GlockenHammer]

I agree with you Charles.

In fact, if Open Carry were legal in TX I still would not do it. The concealment is an advantage to me that I do not want to give away. Carry openly and you are a target. Either your the first one shot, or you're targeted for the pistol-grab. Couple that with everyone knowing that you carry a gun can complicate certain social occasions. I wouldn't trade that for an extra 0.1 sec on the draw and an easier time getting dressed.

It may be more challenging to carry concealed when it gets hot, but it can be done. And I think it is worth the effort, even if I wasn't legally required to do so.

[carlson1]

I personally like concealed, but would carry open at certain times. Of course we could if this thing all day. I hear the argument of loosing the advantage, gun grab, etc. . . All police carry open and you do not hear these things.

[GlockenHammer]

I personally like concealed, but would carry open at certain times. Of course we could if this thing all day. I hear the argument of loosing the advantage, gun grab, etc. . . All police carry open and you do not hear these things.

I have definitely heard of police having their guns grabbed. Some died from their own guns. They have training that I don't have as well. They also have body armor. And secondary weapons. And radios. And stiffer criminal charges for messing with them.

[carlson1]

Almost all gun grabs are during an arrest. I think we would be hard pressed to find many who were traveling from home to work, in the store, etc. . .and a BG walks up and takes his/her gun?

[GlockenHammer]

Perhaps, but I wouldn't want to find out. I don't want to be the guy standing there in line at the grocery store when somebody fresh out on bail needs to find another gun to go kill his cheatin' girlfriend.

As long as I'm allowed to carry concealed, I don't really care what else is legal. I certainly don't want to stand in the way of someone else exercising their rights.

[carlson1]

As long as I'm allowed to carry concealed, I don't really care what else is legal. I certainly don't want to stand in the way of someone else exercising their rights.

I don't think carrying should be open carry or no carry. I also do not believe it should be concealed carry or no carry. Again, personally I like concealed, but I also know there are times that I would carry open. I do not want to be limited. Just my opinion