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Anyone heard any updates on this case?

Reading this, your heart just sinks.

I'm new to CHL (45yo), and have been spending a LOT of time trying to make sure I FULLY understand not only the law, but how it applies in different -real life- scenarios. I've never even been close to breaking the law, and don't want to start now.

In this case, my thoughts are.....The CHL holder did not choose to draw on the robbers as his first reaction. His FIRST reaction was to try to flee the store, I'm guessing at which point he would be able to call Police. He tried to do this, and found the front door had been locked by the armed robbers. At this point, the robbers have now trapped him, he has no chance of escape, and the armed robbers are holding a gun to the head of the clerk making demands. Holding a gun to a third parties head constitutes threat of deadly force, and the armed robbers actions up to this point lead me to believe there is a good chance they will act on their threat. The CHL holder now has only two options.

1. Do not draw your weapon and hope the armed robbers do not follow thru with their threat. Body language of the robbers, and their actions up to this point are all you have to go on. If you are correct by NOT drawing your weapon, the robbers get their money and leave. If you are wrong, the event will play out with the armed robbers shooting the clerk in the head, before turning their weapons on the CHL holder. Will the CHL holder be able to pull his weapon and defend himself in time? But, by waiting until after the clerk has been shot in the head, the CHL holder will now be relieved of any doubt as to the armed robbers intention.

2. Draw your weapon and attempt to save the life of the threatened third party, and your own life. Body language of the robbers, and their actions up to this point are all you have to go on. My understanding of Texas law is, I have the right to use deadly force against an armed robber who is holding a handgun to the head of a clerk in the midst of an armed robbery. However, I put -myself- at risk if I hurt or kill an innocent person should it be found I acted in a wreckless manor, correct? So, what is wreckless? From what little fact I know about this case, the CHL holder most likely felt that the cashier was in IMMEDIATE risk of being shot in the head by one of the two armed robbers. If the CHL holder fired to try and save her life, and she dove one way or the other upon hearing the first shots and was hit......Then I personally see this as an awful tragic event where the actions of the two armed robbers caused this young ladies death. I agree with earlier comments that it could have just as easily been a SWAT team member, or a police officer.

Final thought.....This CHL holder now has to live the rest of his life reliving that moment over and over. I can not imagine. BUT....it could have just as easliy gone the other way. What if he stood there, knowing he was armed, and chose to do nothing.....and the armed robbers blew that young ladies head off. Even if they didn't not kill the CHL holder, can you imagine having to live with THAT every day? This man was in a horrible, no win situation, and NONE of it was his making.

I look forward to the wisdom of the forum, as I admit I am here to learn.

How did the BGS lock the door and then the CHL not be able to unlock it to get away? Unless the clerk had the key in the door and the BGS took it.
At that point I would draw my weapon but not fire unless the BGS shot someone or came at me. Like in this scenario it is hard to see a clear shot with the adrenalin pumping unless you have lots of training IMHO.

Bob in Big D wrote:How did the BGS lock the door and then the CHL not be able to unlock it to get away? Unless the clerk had the key in the door and the BGS took it.
At that point I would draw my weapon but not fire unless the BGS shot someone or came at me. Like in this scenario it is hard to see a clear shot with the adrenalin pumping unless you have lots of training IMHO.

Too many variables here to try and speculate. The only ones who know what happened there are the clerk (now deceased) the CHL and the two BG's. If there is video, then maybe we will be able to tell why this or that did or didn't happen, but until that time Monday morning armchair quarterbacking is fruitless.

My sympathies go to the clerks family and to the CHL holder who has to come to terms with his actions and the decision made.

Did I read correctly that the robbers escaped in the customer's car?

Keith B wrote:

Bob in Big D wrote:How did the BGS lock the door and then the CHL not be able to unlock it to get away? Unless the clerk had the key in the door and the BGS took it.
At that point I would draw my weapon but not fire unless the BGS shot someone or came at me. Like in this scenario it is hard to see a clear shot with the adrenalin pumping unless you have lots of training IMHO.

Too many variables here to try and speculate. The only ones who know what happened there are the clerk (now deceased) the CHL and the two BG's. If there is video, then maybe we will be able to tell why this or that did or didn't happen, but until that time Monday morning armchair quarterbacking is fruitless.

My sympathies go to the clerks family and to the CHL holder who has to come to terms with his actions and the decision made.

My sympathies are likewise with the family of the clerk and the CHL.
I just don't think it was a wise move to be aggressive and take the shot(s) in this situation. Hard to say if the BGS would have killed anyone or were just threatening. Until they actually start shooting or come after me, I will be a better witness in a defensive position.

Bob in Big D wrote:

Keith B wrote:

Bob in Big D wrote:How did the BGS lock the door and then the CHL not be able to unlock it to get away? Unless the clerk had the key in the door and the BGS took it.
At that point I would draw my weapon but not fire unless the BGS shot someone or came at me. Like in this scenario it is hard to see a clear shot with the adrenalin pumping unless you have lots of training IMHO.

Too many variables here to try and speculate. The only ones who know what happened there are the clerk (now deceased) the CHL and the two BG's. If there is video, then maybe we will be able to tell why this or that did or didn't happen, but until that time Monday morning armchair quarterbacking is fruitless.

My sympathies go to the clerks family and to the CHL holder who has to come to terms with his actions and the decision made.

My sympathies are likewise with the family of the clerk and the CHL.
I just don't think it was a wise move to be aggressive and take the shot(s) in this situation. Hard to say if the BGS would have killed anyone or were just threatening. Until they actually start shooting or come after me, I will be a better witness in a defensive position.

Still all speculation. Unless someone is in THAT exact situation, they do not know how they would react. There are hundreds or thousands of different things that can change one shooting scenario to another, including position of individuals, demeanor of clerk, demeanor of bad guys, demeanor of CHL holder, lighting, ad infinitum. Bottom line saying you would or wouldn't do something in a particular situation is still just a guess.

I was in two different shooting situations as a LEO, and I can think of a million things that could have changed just a little and would have affected the whole situation and whether the guy ended up dead or one of us had. A couple of very small things could have changed and the BG's would still have been alive.

I understand what you are saying and don't disagree with you. I would find It difficult to start shooting at the BGS even if he had a gun to her head. For LEO's that train for these situations and like yourself that have faced these situations, it may be an easier decision as your training kicks in. I don't have the benifit of your training or experience so I know I would take a more conservative approach right or wrong.

Bob in Big D wrote:I understand what you are saying and don't disagree with you. I would find It difficult to start shooting at the BGS even if he had a gun to her head. For LEO's that train for these situations and like yourself that have faced these situations, it may be an easier decision as your training kicks in. I don't have the benifit of your training or experience so I know I would take a more conservative approach right or wrong.

That is the whole dilemma you have in any situation, no matter what amount of training you have. Unfortunately you have literally a split second to make a decision, but it is in that split second you hope to make the right decision. If you hesitate, you or someone else may be dead; shoot too quickly and you may be wrong. It is a place you never want to be in if you can avoid it at all.

Bob in Big D wrote:I understand what you are saying and don't disagree with you. I would find It difficult to start shooting at the BGS even if he had a gun to her head. For LEO's that train for these situations and like yourself that have faced these situations, it may be an easier decision as your training kicks in. I don't have the benifit of your training or experience so I know I would take a more conservative approach right or wrong.

I received some good advice from an instructor on this forum. During his CHL and defense classes and seminars, he advised the students to "draw a line in the sand" and think about some of the scenarios and what-if situations where to you would and wouldn't shoot. He advises them to make that decision BEFORE leaving the classroom. The time to draw that line and draw your boundaries is NOW, not in the heat of the moment.

If you are unfortunate enough to get into a particular situation where you have to act, then is past the time when you are in the right frame of mind where you can make a calm rational choice. When it is all over, it may not have been the best decision, but you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you did the best you could under the circumstances.

WildBill wrote:

Bob in Big D wrote:I understand what you are saying and don't disagree with you. I would find It difficult to start shooting at the BGS even if he had a gun to her head. For LEO's that train for these situations and like yourself that have faced these situations, it may be an easier decision as your training kicks in. I don't have the benifit of your training or experience so I know I would take a more conservative approach right or wrong.

I received some good advice from an instructor on this forum. During his CHL and defense classes and seminars, he advised the students to "draw a line in the sand" and think about some of the scenarios and what-if situations where to you would and wouldn't shoot. He advises them to make that decision BEFORE leaving the classroom. The time to draw that line and draw your boundaries is NOW, not in the heat of the moment.

If you are unfortunate enough to get into a particular situation where you have to act, then is past the time when you are in the right frame of mind where you can make a calm rational choice. When it is all over, it may not have been the best decision, but you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you did the best you could under the circumstances.

The hard part is coming up with enough "background" to the "line in the sand" to make it useful (help you make an appropriate decision in the heat of the moment) while still flexible enough to cover the myriad different scenarios that could be the situation you end up in where that decision is needed. I have a problem of getting stuck on details, so I could come up with a decision "ok, if I'm here, and BG is there, and etc, etc, etc" but that would cover almost exactly one situation. I truly respect those who can come up with the general "rules" that can make their pre-situation decisions so clear. In the meantime, I try cogitating things that can go wrong, and reading those real-life scenarios that get on this forum. Every little bit of new scenarios helps me at least realize some possibilities I might run into... not that I would ever encounter the same exact scenario, but... well, I think you get what I'm thinking... the more I read, the more pseudo-experience I get, the more informed (at least nominally) I am and therefore just that much more prepared for whatever will be my real experience.

LikesShinyThings wrote:

WildBill wrote:

Bob in Big D wrote:I understand what you are saying and don't disagree with you. I would find It difficult to start shooting at the BGS even if he had a gun to her head. For LEO's that train for these situations and like yourself that have faced these situations, it may be an easier decision as your training kicks in. I don't have the benifit of your training or experience so I know I would take a more conservative approach right or wrong.

I received some good advice from an instructor on this forum. During his CHL and defense classes and seminars, he advised the students to "draw a line in the sand" and think about some of the scenarios and what-if situations where to you would and wouldn't shoot. He advises them to make that decision BEFORE leaving the classroom. The time to draw that line and draw your boundaries is NOW, not in the heat of the moment.

If you are unfortunate enough to get into a particular situation where you have to act, then is past the time when you are in the right frame of mind where you can make a calm rational choice. When it is all over, it may not have been the best decision, but you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you did the best you could under the circumstances.

The hard part is coming up with enough "background" to the "line in the sand" to make it useful (help you make an appropriate decision in the heat of the moment) while still flexible enough to cover the myriad different scenarios that could be the situation you end up in where that decision is needed. I have a problem of getting stuck on details, so I could come up with a decision "ok, if I'm here, and BG is there, and etc, etc, etc" but that would cover almost exactly one situation. I truly respect those who can come up with the general "rules" that can make their pre-situation decisions so clear. In the meantime, I try cogitating things that can go wrong, and reading those real-life scenarios that get on this forum. Every little bit of new scenarios helps me at least realize some possibilities I might run into... not that I would ever encounter the same exact scenario, but... well, I think you get what I'm thinking... the more I read, the more pseudo-experience I get, the more informed (at least nominally) I am and therefore just that much more prepared for whatever will be my real experience.

I understand that there are an infinite number of permutations of certain scenarios, but there may be some basic questions you can answer.

For example, what is your "line in the sand" regarding defending your property?

If you came out at night and saw some vandals beating on your brand new car with a sledge hammer.

If you came out at night and saw someone running away after taking your GPS unit from the car would you shoot them?

What about the briefcase that you accidently left on the front seat that contained some expensive jewelry, bonds and cash that you just got from your safe deposit box?

WildBill wrote:

LikesShinyThings wrote:

WildBill wrote:

Bob in Big D wrote:I understand what you are saying and don't disagree with you. I would find It difficult to start shooting at the BGS even if he had a gun to her head. For LEO's that train for these situations and like yourself that have faced these situations, it may be an easier decision as your training kicks in. I don't have the benifit of your training or experience so I know I would take a more conservative approach right or wrong.

I received some good advice from an instructor on this forum. During his CHL and defense classes and seminars, he advised the students to "draw a line in the sand" and think about some of the scenarios and what-if situations where to you would and wouldn't shoot. He advises them to make that decision BEFORE leaving the classroom. The time to draw that line and draw your boundaries is NOW, not in the heat of the moment.

If you are unfortunate enough to get into a particular situation where you have to act, then is past the time when you are in the right frame of mind where you can make a calm rational choice. When it is all over, it may not have been the best decision, but you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you did the best you could under the circumstances.

The hard part is coming up with enough "background" to the "line in the sand" to make it useful (help you make an appropriate decision in the heat of the moment) while still flexible enough to cover the myriad different scenarios that could be the situation you end up in where that decision is needed. I have a problem of getting stuck on details, so I could come up with a decision "ok, if I'm here, and BG is there, and etc, etc, etc" but that would cover almost exactly one situation. I truly respect those who can come up with the general "rules" that can make their pre-situation decisions so clear. In the meantime, I try cogitating things that can go wrong, and reading those real-life scenarios that get on this forum. Every little bit of new scenarios helps me at least realize some possibilities I might run into... not that I would ever encounter the same exact scenario, but... well, I think you get what I'm thinking... the more I read, the more pseudo-experience I get, the more informed (at least nominally) I am and therefore just that much more prepared for whatever will be my real experience.

I understand that there are an infinite number of permutations of certain scenarios, but there may be some basic questions you can answer.

For example, what is your "line in the sand" regarding defending your property?

If you came out at night and saw some vandals beating on your brand new car with a sledge hammer.

If you came out at night and saw someone running away after taking your GPS unit from the car would you shoot them?

What about the briefcase that you left in the front seat that contained some jewelry, bonds and cash that you just got from your safe deposit box?

That helps. Yes, I can see what you mean now. Food for thought. Thank you. I love this forum and the wise advice given by the members!