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But the bottom line is this, until you see the sign, you have not been properly informed. The law says it must be prominently posted, but doesn't define "prominent." The law does define other characteristics which determine if the sign is compliant or not—i.e. font size, contrasting background, specific language in English and Spanish, etc., etc. But if the sign is displayed in a not-prominent manner, to where you could not be reasonably expected to see it, then you still haven't been informed until you do see it.

What does that mean? Well, if you enter a building, and their 30.06 sign is posted in a prominent position at the back of the lobby—so you would have to actually enter the building before you could even see it, then it is a defense to prosecution if you turn around and leave as soon as you do actually see it. Whether or not anyone around you knows you're armed and they are aware of the sign is irrelevant.......you still haven't received proper notice until you see the sign.

So, businesses who are serious about keeping you out deal with this by posting a compliant sign prominently at all entrances, so that you, as a law-abiding person (remember, you professed to be exactly that when you applied for your CHL), can know not to enter in the first place. Businesses that are not that serious about it post non-compliant signs on 8.5"x11" paper at the bottom of the front window glass at ground level, behind the trashcan where you can't possibly see it unless you know to look behind the can.

As Keith said, if you cover properly, the chances of you being discovered are slim and none, and slim left town. Your conscience should be your guide. Personally, my conscience is not very flexible.....not even when it is in my self-interest.

gigag04 wrote:One must be reasonably thorough

And have a set of working assumptions

1. All medical facilities are posted until I prove that they are not. I went into the Irving Baylor facility through the office building entrance the first time. While I didn't see a sign on a quick drive by, I disarmed before I went in. As usual, I was running late and didn't poke around on the way in. On the way out, I walked through the rest of the building and found the 30.06 sign on the ambulance entrance - and an LEO at a desk about 20 feet away.

2. Any place that serves alcohol has to present a really big eating area to me. If in doubt, I disarm and then check it out. I have yet to guess wrong.

The only time that I was really surprised was the Haverty's warehouse. None of their stores are posted so I didn't expect that warehouse to be. Fortunately, it was an "in your face" sized sign that you would have had to be legally blind to miss. I wasn't a happy camper.

[quote="chasfm11"]

1. All medical facilities are posted until I prove that they are not. quote]

I disagree with this statement. If I go into a major hospital entrance, where people are going in and coming out in groves, and I don't see the sign — I proceed.

If I see the sign, I turn around and go back to the car. So far, I have yet to have to disarm...

ATDM wrote:

chasfm11 wrote:
1. All medical facilities are posted until I prove that they are not. quote]

I disagree with this statement. If I go into a major hospital entrance, where people are going in and coming out in groves, and I don't see the sign — I proceed.

If I see the sign, I turn around and go back to the car. So far, I have yet to have to disarm...

We tend to act based on our experiences. I've had multiple situations in medical related buildings (Grapevine, Irving) where the 30.06 sign was not visible from the door that I entered. I'm not willing to accept the risk in a medical facility because, unlike going into a store where my concealment is completely under my control and is unlikely to be compromised, that may not be true in a medical building. I was surprisingly "outed" when I went in for a skin lesion treatment and was weighed as a part of that procedure. I had no opportunity to disarm before stepping on the scale and the results of the weigh in were significantly different (because of the gun, belt, spare mags) than my weight history. Fortunately, that facility was not posted.

I personally believe that I'm more likely to be prosecuted in a medial facility is I am discovered with a firearm than I might be elsewhere. Others are free to act on their own risk analysis. I'm simply providing mine.

strange stuff .... during the summer months my body weight can easily vary 4-5 pounds up or down on any given day, and the weight of my handgun may easily be offset by the amount change in my pocket

The Annoyed Man wrote:But the bottom line is this, until you see the sign, you have not been properly informed.

Maybe so, but the law doesn't require you to be informed to be in violation. If somebody is busy texting and walks right past a valid 30.06 sign, the fact they didn't see it doesn't matter legally.

The law doesn't have intent or knowledge as conditions. Like 22.011(a)(2), there is no statutory defense for mistake of fact in 30.06. It might encourage mercy, but the law doesn't require that either.

sunny beach wrote:... but the law doesn't require you to be informed to be in violation. If somebody is busy texting and walks right past a valid 30.06 sign, the fact they didn't see it doesn't matter legally.

The law doesn't have intent or knowledge as conditions. Like 22.011(a)(2), there is no statutory defense for mistake of fact in 30.06. It might encourage mercy, but the law doesn't require that either.

However, if you walk into a building through a major entrance, albeit not the main one, an entrance, through which thousands of people pass each day (true for the hospital I am referring to) and there is NO SIGN IN SIGHT upon a thorough search of the doors, lobby, sidewalk, driveway, etc. — I do not believe there will be prosecution, if the sign is posted at another entrance to the same building.

There will be a legal hassle, and no one wants that. But, since each hospital has dozens of entrances, and it may not be clear, which entrance is "the main" one, a person cannot possibly search them all, simply because he or she may not find them all...

sunny beach wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:But the bottom line is this, until you see the sign, you have not been properly informed.

Maybe so, but the law doesn't require you to be informed to be in violation. If somebody is busy texting and walks right past a valid 30.06 sign, the fact they didn't see it doesn't matter legally.

The law doesn't have intent or knowledge as conditions. Like 22.011(a)(2), there is no statutory defense for mistake of fact in 30.06. It might encourage mercy, but the law doesn't require that either.

Don't be busy texting. In addition to missing a sign and/or causing a wreck, etc., the boogeyman could get you. In some places, it's called situational awareness.

The Annoyed Man wrote:But the bottom line is this, until you see the sign, you have not been properly informed. The law says it must be prominently posted, but doesn't define "prominent." The law does define other characteristics which determine if the sign is compliant or not—i.e. font size, contrasting background, specific language in English and Spanish, etc., etc. But if the sign is displayed in a not-prominent manner, to where you could not be reasonably expected to see it, then you still haven't been informed until you do see it.

What does that mean? Well, if you enter a building, and their 30.06 sign is posted in a prominent position at the back of the lobby—so you would have to actually enter the building before you could even see it, then it is a defense to prosecution if you turn around and leave as soon as you do actually see it. Whether or not anyone around you knows you're armed and they are aware of the sign is irrelevant.......you still haven't received proper notice until you see the sign.

So, businesses who are serious about keeping you out deal with this by posting a compliant sign prominently at all entrances, so that you, as a law-abiding person (remember, you professed to be exactly that when you applied for your CHL), can know not to enter in the first place. Businesses that are not that serious about it post non-compliant signs on 8.5"x11" paper at the bottom of the front window glass at ground level, behind the trashcan where you can't possibly see it unless you know to look behind the can.

As Keith said, if you cover properly, the chances of you being discovered are slim and none, and slim left town. Your conscience should be your guide. Personally, my conscience is not very flexible.....not even when it is in my self-interest.

I'm really surprised, TAM, that with your obvious penchant for words, you'd make such a mistake as this...

PC30.06(c)(3)(B)(iii) wrote: is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

sjfcontrol wrote:

PC30.06(c)(3)(B)(iii) wrote: is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

I am glad that you posted this. A definition of conspicuous is "easy to see or notice; likely to attract attention." In my opinion, if a properly worded sign is posted in a corner or dimly lit area, it is not conspicuous. A premise can be "thoroughly" posted, but that may not meet the legal requirements. That is my take: your interpretation or opinion may differ.

WildBill wrote:

sjfcontrol wrote:

PC30.06(c)(3)(B)(iii) wrote: is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

I am glad that you posted this. A definition of conspicuous is "easy to see or notice; likely to attract attention." In my opinion, if a properly worded sign is posted in a corner or dimly lit area, it is not conspicuous. A premise can be "thoroughly" posted, but that may not meet the legal requirements. That is my take: your, the LEO and/or the Judge's, interpretation or opinion may differ.

There, fixed it for all to see.

Oldgringo wrote:

sunny beach wrote:

The Annoyed Man wrote:But the bottom line is this, until you see the sign, you have not been properly informed.

Maybe so, but the law doesn't require you to be informed to be in violation. If somebody is busy texting and walks right past a valid 30.06 sign, the fact they didn't see it doesn't matter legally.

The law doesn't have intent or knowledge as conditions. Like 22.011(a)(2), there is no statutory defense for mistake of fact in 30.06. It might encourage mercy, but the law doesn't require that either.

Don't be busy texting. In addition to missing a sign and/or causing a wreck, etc., the boogeyman could get you. In some places, it's called situational awareness.

Our mall is like that. 20+ entrances but only the 3 mall entrances are posted, that is what I've heard, I've yet to see these signs. I always go in through a store such as Sears or Jc Penny's. I look when I enter through the stores and if I see no sign I carry on. When I enter the mall from a store I have not seen a sign so I don't worry about it. Until I myself see a 30.06 sign I will go with concealed means concealed approach.

If somebody knows it's posted at the exterior doors and intentionally uses one of the interior doors to pretend they don't know about the signs, that says something about their character.

bizarrenormality wrote:If somebody knows it's posted at the exterior doors and intentionally uses one of the interior doors to pretend they don't know about the signs, that says something about their character.

...like what?