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jmra wrote:

Right2Carry wrote:I will never own a gun that requires you violate one of the safety rules in order to disassemble it. Bad idea to have to put finger on trigger and press during disassembly. All those who champion the 4 rules and keeping booger finger off the trigger will now go into spin mode.

If you don't feel that you have the ability or discipline to verify that the firearm is clear before disassembly then you shouldn't own any firearm.

This old Glocks shoot their owners nonsense is just an absolutely absurd argument, and a pointless discussion. In 60+ years of being around firearms and some of the idiots that own them and watching what they do to themselves and others, I feel qualified to add my collary to what jmra wrote:

"If you want a firearm that allows you to check your brain at the door before handling it, please don't buy one."

There are a great many people in that category. Many of them gleefully point at a Glock and cry "unsafe" "unsafe" and watch videos made by brainless people who somehow figure out how to operate a camera, but fail at operating a firearm. They really believe that somehow there is an anvil made somewhere that they cannot destroy. I've learned to never look at what kind of firearm gets mishandled. It is completely irrelevant. I look at eyes. The reason I do that is to see who is home and who isn't. People who believe they can do anything they want to that gun and it will never go off because it is "safe", I get away from and seek cover.

And yes, ScottDLS, your argument deserved it. IMHO it is far too shopworn.

ShootDontTalk wrote:

jmra wrote:

Right2Carry wrote:I will never own a gun that requires you violate one of the safety rules in order to disassemble it. Bad idea to have to put finger on trigger and press during disassembly. All those who champion the 4 rules and keeping booger finger off the trigger will now go into spin mode.

If you don't feel that you have the ability or discipline to verify that the firearm is clear before disassembly then you shouldn't own any firearm.

This old Glocks shoot their owners nonsense is just an absolutely absurd argument, and a pointless discussion. In 60+ years of being around firearms and some of the idiots that own them and watching what they do to themselves and others, I feel qualified to add my collary to what jmra wrote:

"If you want a firearm that allows you to check your brain at the door before handling it, please don't buy one."

There are a great many people in that category. Many of them gleefully point at a Glock and cry "unsafe" "unsafe" and watch videos made by other brainless people who somehow figure out how to operate a camera, but fail at operating a firearm. They really believe that somehow there is an anvil made somewhere that they cannot destroy. I've learned to never look at what kind of firearm get mishandled. It is completely irrelevant. I look at eyes. The reason I do that is to see who is home and who isn't. People who believe they can do anything they want to that gun and it will never go off because it is "safe", I get away from and seek cover.

And yes, ScottDLS, your argument deserved it. IMHO it is far too shopworn.

Thank you.

(Note: Double post SDT?)

I apologize for the double post. My IPad-fu (And for you old-schoolers, that's a whippersnapper word like spin, which, as best I can figure, means to lie) went on the fritz. And for you whippersnappers, fritz: that's what your TV looks like when you forget to pay the bill.

Dragonfighter wrote:Somebody on this board coined the phrase, "keep your booger hook off the bang switch." I don't care what one carries, if you can't maintain that discipline bad things will happen.

The absolute favorite in my livery is my 1911 that my uncle competed with. But she is a safe queen and only comes out to play when I take guests to the range. I never considered a Glock until I started shopping for a CCW and had fired one. Then the first Texas CHL involved shooting satisfied me as to the effectiveness of the .40 S&W. A used G23 came up for sale at a great price and there you go.

I said all of that to say this. I practiced deploying with a cleared weapon until it was second nature to draw, get a sight picture, THEN drop the finger inside the guard and fire. I practiced at the range until I could put everything in the trunk of a silhouette using front sight acquisition. Then it became my primary carry weapon. I like the even trigger pull as it makes for a more consistent 1st shot/2nd shot placement in my opinion.

If you carry any weapon and don't understand it, don't practice with it and don't pay attention to how you handle it; then you are bound to have problems. Glocks are no more dangerous than any other handgun. But if you pull the trigger it will go bang every time.

P.S. To my 1911 brethren, when I ever get the discretionary budget, I will definitely obtain a 1911 for carry. I love 1911's, carried one in the military and love to shoot my safe queen every chance I can. But I like my Glock. It's just not an all or nothing discussion for me.

Worded well thank you. I carry a lc9 that has a very long pull. What do you recommend as a replacement for a beginner?

lildave40 wrote:

Dragonfighter wrote:Somebody on this board coined the phrase, "keep your booger hook off the bang switch." I don't care what one carries, if you can't maintain that discipline bad things will happen.

The absolute favorite in my livery is my 1911 that my uncle competed with. But she is a safe queen and only comes out to play when I take guests to the range. I never considered a Glock until I started shopping for a CCW and had fired one. Then the first Texas CHL involved shooting satisfied me as to the effectiveness of the .40 S&W. A used G23 came up for sale at a great price and there you go.

I said all of that to say this. I practiced deploying with a cleared weapon until it was second nature to draw, get a sight picture, THEN drop the finger inside the guard and fire. I practiced at the range until I could put everything in the trunk of a silhouette using front sight acquisition. Then it became my primary carry weapon. I like the even trigger pull as it makes for a more consistent 1st shot/2nd shot placement in my opinion.

If you carry any weapon and don't understand it, don't practice with it and don't pay attention to how you handle it; then you are bound to have problems. Glocks are no more dangerous than any other handgun. But if you pull the trigger it will go bang every time.

P.S. To my 1911 brethren, when I ever get the discretionary budget, I will definitely obtain a 1911 for carry. I love 1911's, carried one in the military and love to shoot my safe queen every chance I can. But I like my Glock. It's just not an all or nothing discussion for me.

Worded well thank you. I carry a lc9 that has a very long pull. What do you recommend as a replacement for a beginner?

Glock 19 with Ghost trigger connector (about $15 bucks and a DIY) and a quality holster.

Regardless of your choice, training should be involved. **as much and as often as possible**

I don't want anybody to think that I, in particular, am any better than anyone....so, confession time.

During one of the buy-a-gun-madness rushes I was helping the owner of our local gun store on a Friday because he always got overrun in the afternoon when people got off work. It wasn't real busy and three of our officers came in to browse. The Sgt. asked if he could look at a Springfield M1A Scout Squad that was in the new rifle rack. I picked the rifle up, noted no magazine and a price tag that indicated it was new in the box. Now who loads new in the box guns? Nobody, right? Big mistake!

The Sgt was looking the gun over and noted the safety was on. Later he told me that seemed odd to him. Thank God he was paying attention. He pulled back the bolt....clunk. A shiny .308 round fell out. I almost died. The store owner sheepishly admitted it was not new in the box, but unfired by the one owner, and he had taken it in trade. It had been handled by numerous people since that morning. No one, LEAST OF ALL ME, ever checked the chamber. The Sgt said he was about to take the safety off and check the trigger pull when something said, "This isn't right." The Sgt was the only person in the store who was "at home" that day.

I could have rationalized the whole incident by chalking it up to an idiot bringing a loaded rifle into a gun store to trade. But after a minute or two I decided, no IT WAS NO ONES FAULT BUT MINE. I DID NOT THINK TO CHECK THE CHAMBER. It made a lasting impression on me. Now EVERY gun I touch gets CLEARED RELIGIOUSLY. I had done this for 54 years, but it only takes one mistake - one moment of inattention.

The lesson for me: I had better always pay attention around guns and NO GUN IS EVER TRULY SAFE UNTIL I STICK MY FINGER IN THE CHAMBER. No safety protected me that day. I need to know that NO FINGER EVER TOUCHES THE TRIGGER UNTIL THE GUN IS CLEARED BY ME OR I INTEND TO FIRE. The Sgt almost took the safety off and pulled the trigger. It was his brain that prevented a catastrophe. Lesson learned.

Guys, and ladies, never, ever, rely on a man made safety to keep you safe. Not ever.

ShootDontTalk wrote:I don't want anybody to think that I, in particular, am any better than anyone....so, confession time.

During one of the buy-a-gun-madness rushes I was helping the owner of our local gun store on a Friday because he always got overrun in the afternoon when people got off work. It wasn't real busy and three of our officers came in to browse. The Sgt. asked if he could look at a Springfield M1A Scout Squad that was in the new rifle rack. I picked the rifle up, noted no magazine and a price tag that indicated it was new in the box. Now who loads new in the box guns? Nobody, right? Big mistake!

The Sgt was looking the gun over and noted the safety was on. Later he told me that seemed odd to him. Thank God he was paying attention. He pulled back the bolt....clunk. A shiny .308 round fell out. I almost died. The store owner sheepishly admitted it was not new in the box, but unfired by the one owner, and he had taken it in trade. It had been handled by numerous people since that morning. No one, LEAST OF ALL ME, ever checked the chamber. The Sgt said he was about to take the safety off and check the trigger pull when something said, "This isn't right." The Sgt was the only person in the store who was "at home" that day.

I could have rationalized the whole incident by chalking it up to an idiot bringing a loaded rifle into a gun store to trade. But after a minute or two I decided, no IT WAS NO ONES FAULT BUT MINE. I DID NOT THINK TO CHECK THE CHAMBER. It made a lasting impression on me. Now EVERY gun I touch gets CLEARED RELIGIOUSLY. I had done this for 54 years, but it only takes one mistake - one moment of inattention.

The lesson for me: I had better always pay attention around guns and NO GUN IS EVER TRULY SAFE UNTIL I STICK MY FINGER IN THE CHAMBER. No safety protected me that day. I need to know that NO FINGER EVER TOUCHES THE TRIGGER UNTIL THE GUN IS CLEARED BY ME OR I INTEND TO FIRE. The Sgt almost took the safety off and pulled the trigger. It was his brain that prevented a catastrophe. Lesson learned.

Guys, and ladies, never, ever, rely on a man made safety to keep you safe. Not ever.

The gun shop owner took a trade on a gun without inspecting it enough to even notice it was loaded? Shouldn't own a gun store.

ShootDontTalk wrote:Guys, and ladies, never, ever, rely on a man made safety to keep you safe. Not ever.

The best safety is the one between your ears.

The gun shop owner took a trade on a gun without inspecting it enough to even notice it was loaded? Shouldn't own a gun store.

Not picking on you, but that is one reason America is in deep trouble. Everybody thinks somebody else is responsible for their own failings. "He should have checked it. It was his store. It was his responsibility to check the chamber."

Maybe that is true. But in no way does it relieve ME of MY RESPONSIBILITY to check it when I PICK IT UP. (I routinely did that each and every time I handed a gun to a customer when I was helping out - except this time.) The first rule of gun safety is every firearm is always loaded. That rule is for me, not anyone else. Somebody checks a gun and it isn't loaded and hands it to me...it is always loaded. I check it myself. The buck stops with me.

Depending on anyone or anything else to keep you from getting killed by your own failure to pay attention is a really bad idea.

ShootDontTalk wrote:

The gun shop owner took a trade on a gun without inspecting it enough to even notice it was loaded? Shouldn't own a gun store.

Not picking on you, but that is one reason America is in deep trouble. Everybody thinks somebody else is responsible for their own failings. "He should have checked it. It was his store. It was his responsibility to check the chamber."

Maybe that is true. But in no way does it relieve ME of MY RESPONSIBILITY to check it when I PICK IT UP. (I routinely did that each and every time I handed a gun to a customer when I was helping out - except this time.) The first rule of gun safety is every firearm is always loaded. That rule is for me, not anyone else. Somebody checks a gun and it isn't loaded and hands it to me...it is always loaded. I check it myself. The buck stops with me.

Depending on anyone or anything else to keep you from getting killed by your own failure to pay attention is a really bad idea.

Frankly, I find your post rather offensive. I'm not what's wrong with America...I work more than 50 hours a week, pay a huge amount of taxes, and take responsibility for myself and family in every aspect. I help my neighbors and play by the rules.

Possibly you read my post incorrectly.

The store owner was doing a poor job of running his store. Of course he should have safety checked the gun, but that wasn't even my point.

I was referring to the fact that he essentially bought (by offering trade value) a firearm without even checking it's functionality and condition well enough to notice there was a round chambered. For example, he obviously had no idea of the condition of the barrel...he couldn't have looked at it without noticing the chambered round.

In my opinion he had extremely poor business sense and I wouldn't have bought a gun there if I knew that he wouldn't even inspect the proper workings of a gun before he put it out to re-sell.

And how does anything you wrote have anything to do with my responsibility to check a gun I handled?

It wasn't your responsibility to check it, it was mine. How on earth can that be offensive to you? The phrase "not picking on you" means it has nothing to do with you, but the attitude that many people have that nobody is personally responsible for their actions - specifically me, if I had assumed it was anyone's fault but mine.

None of what I wrote was about you. It wasn't about the store owner. It wasn't about anybody else in the store. It was about me. If I had gotten shot, it would have been my fault. Understand?

This whole thread is about SAFETY, not how he runs his store.

TVGuy wrote:I was referring to the fact that he essentially bought (by offering trade value) a firearm without even checking it's functionality and condition well enough to notice there was a round chambered. For example, he obviously had no idea of the condition of the barrel...he couldn't have looked at it without noticing the chambered round.

In my opinion he had extremely poor business sense and I wouldn't have bought a gun there if I knew that he wouldn't even inspect the proper workings of a gun before he put it out to re-sell.

The owner or whoever took the trade obviously did not inspect the firearm when they took the trade. They had no clue what condition the rifle was in other than how it was cosmetically. The firearm should have been checked when it was received in trade and checked every time before it was handed to a potential buyer. I would not even want to be a gun shop with that level of incompetence.

Selling used guns as new also does not sit well with me, even if the are like new.

ShootDontTalk wrote:Not picking on you, but that is one reason America is in deep trouble. Everybody thinks somebody else is responsible for their own failings. "He should have checked it. It was his store. It was his responsibility to check the chamber."

The owner should of checked it. It is his store and he should know that there is people who have never handled a firearm that go into gun shops. The first thing someone who has no clue when it comes to firearms does is place their finger on the trigger. Some will even squeeze it. The owner should know that. It was his fault and the employees who handed the firearm to customers without checking it. The blame game is not one reason America is in trouble. One reason America is in trouble is because irresponsible people do not know how to safely handle firearms are causing accidents, which could of been avoided, and the antis will use it against us.

Here's a tip, and you can ignore it without hurting my feelings.

I was in a Gander Mountain a while back and was struck by the obvious and mechanical way a salesperson cleared every pistol he touched, every time he touched it.

He established a good, correct grip on the firearm with his trigger finger firmly straight and indexed on the frame. With the muzzle in a safe direction he locked the slide and rotated the gun so he could look down through the magazine well. After about one second of observing the gun in that position, he rotated the muzzle down about 45 degrees so he could visually inspect the chamber. Both hands were involved, he really couldn't physically do anything distracting while performing his clearing routine.

With the act of clearing the firearm set as a dance move of several steps, I don't think I'll ever get distracted and fail to completely clear a pistol. If I am interrupted, I start over.

If I dump a round out of the chamber when I run the slide back, I still have my complete dance move to go. Lock the slide back, view the empty magazine well for a beat, rotate the muzzle down and view the chamber, ease the slide back into battery.

For my weak mind, standard procedures are the safest. In the past I just cleared the gun like a country boy and I was always safe. Now I clear the gun in a way some might say is a little foolish - but I'm on rails when I clear the gun. No accidental wrong turns.

For my peace of mind, as much as possible of gun handling is best done in rote fashion, with one's mind alert.

ShootDontTalk wrote:It wasn't your responsibility to check it, it was mine. How on earth can that be offensive to you?

Its offensive to anyone who doesnt want to give the antis more reason to try to pass stricter gun laws.

ShootDontTalk wrote:It was about me. If I had gotten shot, it would have been my fault. Understand?

If you had gotten shot or killed, you would the ammunition for the group of morons who says guns are dangerous, when in fact its peoples ignorance, to say the least, that gets them or others killed while handling firearms.

Safeties and the Four Safety Rules are there because everyone has mental lapses. We all are imperfect. I like thumb safeties because they force me to take the safety off. If you feel safe without that and with a relatively light trigger, good for you, I don't.

The one thing about a Glock that I think is ridiculous is that you have to pull the trigger to disassemble the gun. While you should always unload a gun before dis-assembly, requiring the trigger to be pulled completely ignores that fact that everyone has lapses. That to me is a safety problem with the Glocks.