Open carry claims another victim

[frankie_the_yankee]

I see the light.

I'm just completely wrong about all this.

I shouldn't worry about an openly carried gun possibly being snatched by a BG in a crowded urban environment because, well, I'm wrong. A BG would just never do that, even if he were twice my size and a lot younger, and the gun was sitting there where it could be easily snatched, because BG's just don't do that and I should just take peoples' word for that and stop worrying about it.

After all, where did I ever get this silly notion that tactical surprise was something to be valued? Just because it worked for Hannibal, Rommel, MacArthur, Tojo, Nimitz, and Muhammed Ali, and the lack of it cost Detective Allen in Providence, RI his life, doesn't mean it would work for me.

And if someone wants to openly carry in an urban area in a opencarry.com "gold" state like VA, they should go right ahead and do it even though they will likely be spread against a wall and handcuffed by police while they are sorting things out, because it is just silly and "anti-gun" to be concerned with such things.

The important thing is that open carry is legal there.

And if you have a RI pistol permit, you shouldn't hesitate to carry openly in RI just as opencarry.com says you can, (it's a "green state") even though you will be arrested on sight, because minor details like that just aren't worth bothering about.

And I have completely failed to give proper weight to the lack of problems with open carry in the so-called open carry states. It's true that only a tiny handful of people actually do open carry in urban areas in these states, (thus limiting the number of possible "problems" that could occur to a tiny level) but I should give much greater consideration to the many thousands of people around the country who like to talk about doing it or fantasize about doing it. After all, their "experience" must count for something, right?

I'm just glad for the chance to get this all straightened out.

[KBCraig]

Cops carry openly mostly because they have to.

Sorry, but I have to ask why you think this is true. I know lots of cops who carry concealed on duty. I agree that it would look unusual to see a cop in uniform without a weapon, but there is no law saying they cannot carry that way (at least in Texas).

I think that most departments require their uniformed cops to carry openly. There may be exceptions.

Do you even realize you're arguing with a cop (not to mention director of the police academy for a statewide LE agency) about how cops carry?

Well, I guess you're welcome to match your experience and expertise against his...

[Liberty]

I see the light.

I'm just completely wrong about all this.

I shouldn't worry about an openly carried gun possibly being snatched by a BG in a crowded urban environment because, well, I'm wrong. A BG would just never do that, even if he were twice my size and a lot younger, and the gun was sitting there where it could be easily snatched, because BG's just don't do that and I should just take peoples' word for that and stop worrying about it.

After all, where did I ever get this silly notion that tactical surprise was something to be valued? Just because it worked for Hannibal, Rommel, MacArthur, Tojo, Nimitz, and Muhammed Ali, and the lack of it cost Detective Allen in Providence, RI his life, doesn't mean it would work for me.

And if someone wants to openly carry in an urban area in a opencarry.com "gold" state like VA, they should go right ahead and do it even though they will likely be spread against a wall and handcuffed by police while they are sorting things out, because it is just silly and "anti-gun" to be concerned with such things.

The important thing is that open carry is legal there.

And if you have a RI pistol permit, you shouldn't hesitate to carry openly in RI just as opencarry.com says you can, (it's a "green state") even though you will be arrested on sight, because minor details like that just aren't worth bothering about.

And I have completely failed to give proper weight to the lack of problems with open carry in the so-called open carry states. It's true that only a tiny handful of people actually do open carry in urban areas in these states, (thus limiting the number of possible "problems" that could occur to a tiny level) but I should give much greater consideration to the many thousands of people around the country who like to talk about doing it or fantasize about doing it. After all, their "experience" must count for something, right?

I'm just glad for the chance to get this all straightened out.

I told myself. "Self, You have said all that you have to say in this discussion and have nothing more to add."
No one here is about to run off to Providence or Alexandria with a gun strapped to their forehead.
Frankie, I think that you have a misunderstanding of the intents that some of the people have. No one is suggesting that everyone should open carry at all times. The idea is that we should have the right to open carry and that for some of us at certain times open carry might be desirable.

Earlier I presented situations where I thought it might be desirable.

Surf fishing,
on a small boat.
On a motor cycle
On Horseback.

My thoughts are that it could be difficult to draw from concealment in these circumstances,and that a snatch would be very unlikely. and that concealment could be done quickly when appropriate.
The issue is, that most here are over 21, and there is a streak of independence that runs through folks here that is unlike anywhere else I've ever seen. Most of us don't like the gooberment or anyone else telling us what to do and how to do it. A trait that we share with each other is that we have been around for a while and don't appreciate anyone telling us what to do. A lot of us might be open to suggestions and are willing to learn a few tricks. But we will fight back hard when someone talks about restrictions of our rights. There are people here that have made major sacrifices to forward and protect these rights.

Remember the your CHL class? Parent adult and child relationships.

Thats it. I have nothing more to say on this.. Nope . I mean it this time .... Really honest to goodness. Nope nope .. no more no mas ..

[frankie_the_yankee]

Cops carry openly mostly because they have to.

Sorry, but I have to ask why you think this is true. I know lots of cops who carry concealed on duty. I agree that it would look unusual to see a cop in uniform without a weapon, but there is no law saying they cannot carry that way (at least in Texas).

I think that most departments require their uniformed cops to carry openly. There may be exceptions.

Do you even realize you're arguing with a cop (not to mention director of the police academy for a statewide LE agency) about how cops carry?

Well, I guess you're welcome to match your experience and expertise against his...

Please re-read what Stephan said and what I said.

He said there was no law saying that cops had to carry openly in uniform.

I did not argue with this statement. I have no reason to believe that it is anything but correct.

Far from arguing with Stephan on this point, I merely stated that I thought that most departments required their uniformed cops to carry openly. This would be by department rule, not by state law.

If my statement is correct, then it is. If it is not, Stephan or anyone else is perfectly free to point out how or why it is incorrect.

I really don't see a problem here.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Frankie, I think that you have a misunderstanding of the intents that some of the people have.

I sure hope so.

To quote the "illustrious" Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?"

No one is suggesting that everyone should open carry at all times.

Good.

The idea is that we should have the right to open carry and that for some of us at certain times open carry might be desirable.

OK. I don't really have a problem with that.

Earlier I presented situations where I thought it might be desirable.

Surf fishing,
on a small boat.
On a motor cycle
On Horseback.

My thoughts are that it could be difficult to draw from concealment in these circumstances,and that a snatch would be very unlikely. and that concealment could be done quickly when appropriate.

Those scenarios seem reasonable to me, though for the bike one the situation can change depending on when/where you get on or off.

My main point is that open carry is tactically unsound in urban settings where you are in close proximity to lots of people whom you don't know. In those situations, I think having tactical surprise on your side is a big advantage.

Sure, I might have been a little sarcastic here and there in expressing this. But the truth is that I was amazed that anyone would argue with the idea that if you are standing in line at Mickey-D's with a group of 5 gangsta types behind you, that are twice as big as you, that it might be better for you if they didn't know you were packing than if you had a cocked & locked 1911 sticking out of a small of the back holster with no retention strap.

But hey, if you guys think that the above situation would be no problem because "snatchings are rare" or for whatever reason, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

The issue is, that most here are over 21, and there is a streak of independence that runs through folks here that is unlike anywhere else I've ever seen. Most of us don't like the gooberment or anyone else telling us what to do and how to do it.

So you won't be shocked if I tell you that I am over 21 too and have a streak of independence of my own.

The other thing that seems to get lost in all the noise is that I favor legalization of open carry in TX. The main benefit is that we would no more be concerned with any "failure to conceal" nonsense when adjusting cover garments, etc.

[Right2Carry]

I have to say that calling people stupid or dumb for openly carrying is not the way to present your argument.

I for one would love to be able to open carry, is there some risk sure there is, but there is also risk associated with having my weapon concealed.

I think we all can agree bad guys will seek out the weakest victim or easy prey if you will.

BG is on the prowl looking for an easy victim. He sees a person who is carrying a handgun in the open. Does that person look like an easy target? IMHO the answer is no so BG decides to wait for someone who might be an easier target. BG sees another person walking who doesn't have a weapon. BG thinks hey maybe the guy has a concealed weapon maybe not. BG decides to take his opportunity on this guy who APPEARS to be unarmed. BG may or may not get the drop on the CHL holder.

My point is that having a CHL has some risk in that it can make you appear to be an easy victim, when if fact you are not, but because the handgun was concealed it invited an attempted attack because you were presented as an easy target.

Either carry method requires you to be situational observant. Know what is going on around you at all times.

Both methods have some risk involved. Only one method IMHO doesn't make you look like an easy victim. I don't buy into the argument that BG's are just luking everywhere to run up and snatch an openly carried handgun.

In TEXAS when you see someone openly carrying you automatically assume he is a LEO. I don't think there is a requirement that states they have to have a badge or symbol stating they are LEO but I could be wrong. BG's look for easy victims, and I don't think somone who open carries looks like an easy victim.

I think 43 states in this country have some form of OPEN CARRY and its just a shame that TEXAS isn't one of them.

[flintknapper]

Sure, I might have been a little sarcastic here and there in expressing this. But the truth is that I was amazed that anyone would argue with the idea that if you are standing in line at Mickey-D's with a group of 5 gangsta types behind you, that are twice as big as you, that it might be better for you if they didn't know you were packing than if you had a cocked & locked 1911 sticking out of a small of the back holster with no retention strap.

I don't remember anyone arguing any such thing. Certainly...open carry in the wrong environment could present an opportunity for someone to grab your weapon. It wouldn't even have to be BG/Thug/Gansta Type. A curious child could do it.

An extra level of awareness and a willingness to remove yourself from an area of threat might sometimes be needed. The vast majority of Texas is not a crowded urban area....so I don't understand your fixation on that. I know for a fact that Smithville doesn't fit the bill. I spent most of my life in Austin (30 miles NW of you) and visited Smithville regularly.

What IS being argued... is that many people in MOST parts of the State might well benefit from an open carry option. You seem to want to labor the idea that under some circumstances (crowded urban setting swelling with BG's) that open carry might not be the best idea. No revelation there.

I think your narrow position on Open Carry serves only to "Throw the baby out with the bath water". Sorry for the idiom.

Again, no one is arguing that an open carried weapon "could not" be snatched under certain circumstances. Likewise....no one has suggested that it is the perfect way to carry all the time (no method is).

I am simply asking you to consider the probability of a weapon being taken from ALL people, under ALL conditions...STATEWIDE. I believe it would be a rare event.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Sure, I might have been a little sarcastic here and there in expressing this. But the truth is that I was amazed that anyone would argue with the idea that if you are standing in line at Mickey-D's with a group of 5 gangsta types behind you, that are twice as big as you, that it might be better for you if they didn't know you were packing than if you had a cocked & locked 1911 sticking out of a small of the back holster with no retention strap.

I don't remember anyone arguing any such thing. Certainly...open carry in the wrong environment could present an opportunity for someone to grab your weapon. It wouldn't even have to be BG/Thug/Gansta Type. A curious child could do it.

An extra level of awareness and a willingness to remove yourself from an area of threat might sometimes be needed. The vast majority of Texas is not a crowded urban area....so I don't understand your fixation on that. I know for a fact that Smithville doesn't fit the bill. I spent most of my life in Austin (30 miles NW of you) and visited Smithville regularly.

What IS being argued... is that many people in MOST parts of the State might well benefit from an open carry option. You seem to want to labor the idea that under some circumstances (crowded urban setting swelling with BG's) that open carry might not be the best idea. No revelation there.

I think your narrow position on Open Carry serves only to "Throw the baby out with the bath water". Sorry for the idiom.

Again, no one is arguing that an open carried weapon "could not" be snatched under certain circumstances. Likewise....no one has suggested that it is the perfect way to carry all the time (no method is).

I am simply asking you to consider the probability of a weapon being taken from ALL people, under ALL conditions...STATEWIDE. I believe it would be a rare event.

That works for me.

Maybe it's just me, but the tone of your post seems more "reasoned" and less "shrill" than some previous posts. Maybe some of mine were on the shrill side themselves.

Ruffled feathers and all that.

While living in Smithville, I spend a lot of time in Austin. So the urban angle is a big deal for me. And my Phoenix experiences clearly demonstrated to me that there are times and places where concealed carry is clearly better.

But I will freely acknowledge that there are times and places, mostly in rural settings IMO, where open carry is at least as good and maybe more comfortable. So if open carry were proposed for TX I would support it.

In Austin, I'd still carry concealed.

[kw5kw]

It's simple... if you're going to go into an area where you know it is dangerous... stay out if at all possible. If you still choose to go there, then that is simply your bad judgement and hide your weapon.

Concealed carry does give a tactical advantage... yes; but so does open carry. I know that when I'm in Wal-Mart, for instance, and I see a deputy sheriff or a Texas Ranger carrying openly while in their 'street clothes' I feel safer because I can see his (or her) weapon and I'm not afraid that they are fixin' to get their guns snatched by the gang-banger in the next aisle. It just doesn't concern me.

I'm from the old school where cheaters and criminals carried concealed and honest men carried their weapons openly.

But that's just me.

[srothstein]

I shouldn't worry about an openly carried gun possibly being snatched by a BG in a crowded urban environment because, well, I'm wrong. A BG would just never do that, even if he were twice my size and a lot younger, and the gun was sitting there where it could be easily snatched, because BG's just don't do that and I should just take peoples' word for that and stop worrying about it.

After all, where did I ever get this silly notion that tactical surprise was something to be valued? Just because it worked for Hannibal, Rommel, MacArthur, Tojo, Nimitz, and Muhammed Ali, and the lack of it cost Detective Allen in Providence, RI his life, doesn't mean it would work for me.

Frankie,

I would never say you were wrong about the advantage tactical surprise might give you. I would say you are not viewing the situation in its entirety though. Surprise is a definite advantage IF you can actually draw the gun. Consider the possibility of it hanging up on clothing, or the time it takes to get it out from where you keep it (I personally would never buy ankle carry for that reason). If you cannot get to the weapon, it is useless.

Also, surprise may help you, but if your lack of obvious defensive ability makes you a target, did the concealment really help or hurt?

On the other hand, I also never said that a BG would not snatch your gun. I said that you were making a faulty assumption that everyone else out there is bad guys. 99% of the people in the urban environment would not grab your gun because they are not BG's. Cops get their guns snatched not because they were walking around with it in open carry, but because they deliberately go put themselves in position to try to deal with BG's. Since you would not be doing this, the threat level of a snatch when you carry openly is not as high as you make it out to be, IMO.

So, what it comes down to is that there are plenty of valid arguments for both open and concealed carry. And we both agree to support both types of laws. I am a firm believer you have the right to carry openly or concealed as you desire.

One of the other things I have learned is that tactics is really an individual thing. Each of us develops our own tactics and we know what works for us. For example, one officer may prefer the driver in a traffic stop to stay in the car while another may prefer him to get out of the car at the stop. So tactics becomes a very personal choice and decision.

So, since we both get to make our own choice of tactics, and we both support laws to enable either choice, we do not have any arguments. We may have some interesting philosophical debates (that occasionally get a little heated) but we have no arguments. We are on the same side, after all.

[GlockenHammer]

So, since we both get to make our own choice of tactics, and we both support laws to enable either choice, we do not have any arguments. We may have some interesting philosophical debates (that occasionally get a little heated) but we have no arguments. We are on the same side, after all.

[frankie_the_yankee]

Frankie,

I would never say you were wrong about the advantage tactical surprise might give you. I would say you are not viewing the situation in its entirety though. Surprise is a definite advantage IF you can actually draw the gun. Consider the possibility of it hanging up on clothing, or the time it takes to get it out from where you keep it (I personally would never buy ankle carry for that reason). If you cannot get to the weapon, it is useless.

Also, surprise may help you, but if your lack of obvious defensive ability makes you a target, did the concealment really help or hurt?

On the other hand, I also never said that a BG would not snatch your gun. I said that you were making a faulty assumption that everyone else out there is bad guys. 99% of the people in the urban environment would not grab your gun because they are not BG's. Cops get their guns snatched not because they were walking around with it in open carry, but because they deliberately go put themselves in position to try to deal with BG's. Since you would not be doing this, the threat level of a snatch when you carry openly is not as high as you make it out to be, IMO.

So, what it comes down to is that there are plenty of valid arguments for both open and concealed carry. And we both agree to support both types of laws. I am a firm believer you have the right to carry openly or concealed as you desire.

One of the other things I have learned is that tactics is really an individual thing. Each of us develops our own tactics and we know what works for us. For example, one officer may prefer the driver in a traffic stop to stay in the car while another may prefer him to get out of the car at the stop. So tactics becomes a very personal choice and decision.

So, since we both get to make our own choice of tactics, and we both support laws to enable either choice, we do not have any arguments. We may have some interesting philosophical debates (that occasionally get a little heated) but we have no arguments. We are on the same side, after all.

I agree that there are arguments for both sides. Especially as regards appropriate times and places.

My opinion may be skewed by a drama-filled OC experience I had in Phoenix a few years back. Trust me when I tell you that there are times when it is much better to be able to "blend in" than to be obviously armed.

And sure, there are OTHER TIMES when it might be better to be obviously armed.

If I am in a crowd of people that I don't know, I am much more comfortable carrying concealed.

"Cops get their guns snatched not because they were walking around with it in open carry, but because they deliberately go put themselves in position to try to deal with BG's. Since you would not be doing this, the threat level of a snatch when you carry openly is not as high as you make it out to be, IMO."

Sure, I won't be inserting myself into situations like a cop would. But if a BG thinks I'm an easy mark for a snatch attempt, the situation could very well find me. If someone tries a snatch, I am in a scuffle with a BG at that point even though I did not initiate it. Worse yet, the BG is probably bigger and stronger than me or he wouldn't have tried it to begin with. So I'm stuck with trying to keep a bigger, stronger BG from getting my gun.

Not good.

Then, what if the OC person is a small female, or elderly, or both? It's basic economics. The better the chances of success, the more likely that someone might be tempted to try it.

Bottom line: No one would try to snatch T.O.'s gun. But the last time anybody was afraid of me was at a Halloween party - and they were only 5 years old.

Open carry might have some deterrent value. In fact, in the incident I have been referring to, it DID appear to have some, as the gangsta types ended up giving me a wide berth. But as someone who is not very big, and wearing an open topped holster, I was quite concerned about appearing to be an easy mark for a snatch.

In contrast, I have carried concealed for years and have never felt an anxious moment.

I may have gotten carried away, (and maybe some others did also) but that's my basic take on it.

[KBCraig]

*ahem*

If I might intrude on the debate, I'd like to point out that the "Open Carry Victim" named in the title of this thread, was Bowie County Sheriff's Deputy Michael Page.

Deputy Page will be laid to rest today. Services will be held at 10 a.m. Tuesday, July 3, at Sacred Heart Catholic church in Texarkana, Texas.

He was a good man, and brother-in-law of one of my fellow officers. He leaves behind a wife, two pre-schoolers, and a stepson.

Perhaps we could suspend the debate about open carry until the earth settles on his grave.

Kevin

(Pardon the poor writing/editing by the Texarkana Gazette staff. I'm not in a mood to edit it for them.)

Gazette article


‘A really funny guy’: Fallen lawman remembered
By: Terri Richardson - Texarkana Gazette - Published: 07/02/2007

Many are mourning the loss of 34-year-old Bowie County Deputy Michael Page, who was killed in the line of duty early Saturday. On Sunday, family members gathered at the home of his parents, William and Doris Page. Officers and friends visited them there, offering support and condolences. His mother and sister, Barbara Page, said Michael Page was always trying to make people laugh and working to make people more comfortable. “He loved to entertain everybody and make them laugh. He was a really funny guy,� Doris Page said.

They said he was influenced to become a police officer by Detective Jeff Gladden, currently with the Texarkana, Ark., Police Department. They said he loved people and wanted to make them safer. “Mike was very justice minded and couldn’t stand for injustice. He had a real sense of fair play,� Barbara Page said. Page also loved to read, work out and was enthusiastic about photos and family photos. He was also described as real family oriented, a “real family guy� who was a wonderful father to Katherine, 4, and Max, 2.

One question that may never be answered about the senseless shooting is, “Why?� “We can’t know why he (Henry Wakefield) decided he had to run and why he thought he had to take two lives. The only person who knows that is him. Nothing is so important that a person has to go to those extremes,� said Bowie County Sheriff James Prince on Sunday. “We go to hundreds and hundreds of accident scenes, and you never expect anything like this to happen,� Prince said.

Page was responding to a single-car accident call at 1:08 a.m. Saturday on Farm to Market Road 992 north of Interstate 30 in New Boston. When the deputy arrived, Henry Wakefield, the driver of a brown Honda Accord, fled into a wooded area near 1805 FM 992. The Honda was possibly stolen by Wakefield from an acquaintance with whom he had an altercation earlier that night, police said. Page pursued Wakefield and was shot after entering the woods.

The New Boston Fire Department was on scene shortly after, responding to the car accident call. Firefighters who brought Page out of the trees heard at least two gunshots while at the scene. Page was taken by ambulance to CHRISTUS St. Michael Health Center, where he was later pronounced dead. A manhunt began almost immediately, police said. Hundreds of officers from more than a dozen area police and fire departments responded while Wakefield was considered at-large.

Focusing on a 4-mile by 4-mile area, a bloodhound located Wakefield at 8:40 a.m., dead in a thicket. Page’s service weapon was in his hand. Wakefield had committed suicide, police said. Evidence is being processed and the investigation into the two deaths is ongoing. Indicators from the scene show that the gun used to kill Deputy Page was his own service weapon. “The gun was in the other man’s (Wakefield’s) hand. Until the lab does ballistics we won’t be 100 percent sure, but we are 99 percent certain,� Prince said Sunday.

The Texas Rangers are investigating the shooting because it involved an officer. The bodies of both Page and Wakefield were sent to Dallas for autopsies. Page’s mass of Christian burial will be held at 10 a.m. Tuesday at Sacred Heart Catholic Church with Monsignor Gerald Priest officiating. Burial with law enforcement honors will be in Holy Cross Cemetery. Page had been with the sheriff’s department for about three years and with the Texarkana, Texas, Police Department for about five years before that. He also served in the Army and was a member of Sacred Heart Catholic Church.

Page lived in Maud, Texas, with his wife, Cyenthia Page, their two children and stepson Austin Malone. Rosary will be said at 6 p.m. today at Texarkana Funeral Home on Texas Boulevard.

[phddan]

Rest in peace, Deputy Page.

[stevie_d_64]

*ahem*

If I might intrude on the debate, I'd like to point out that the "Open Carry Victim" named in the title of this thread, was Bowie County Sheriff's Deputy Michael Page.

And with this well received reminder, I suggest this end yet another debate/discussion of Masterpiece "Open Carry" Theater...

Tune in next week for Agatha Crispies classic "Glock vs. 1911"...

Till then keep yer powder dry!