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frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Dragonfighter wrote: We may be having an issue with definitions here.

Nope. The gun never should have left the holster in my opinion.

Duly noted but whether you believe the weapon should have cleared leather or not does not speak to the many references about "MIL looking down the barrel of a gun..." and "She could have been hit..." hence the exploration of what low ready means, at least to those trained in the military.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Me wrote:If Cipher went to "low ready" the weapon wasn't pointed at anybody and had it discharged he would've (in a peer and beam) been out some carpet and plywood. The MIL wasn't looking down the barrel of anything.

And if that carpet and plywood you refered to above was on the 2nd floor, then people going about their business in an apartment below could have been endangered.

And your injecting factors not in evidence. I "allowed" for the possibility of an accidental discharge but the reality of a "low ready" would indicate that his finger wasn't in the trigger guard. This also deflects the issue, I say again, MIL wasn't looking down the barrel of anything.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Me wrote:Readying the weapon should be instinctual. Forming a sight picture,dropping the finger inside the guard and discharging the weapon should be a rapid chain of analysis and reaction.

In a war zone maybe. But I don't live in one and I would guess that Cipher doesn't either.

First, why should self-protection reflexes be any different in CONUS peace time? Complacency, delayed reactions, this is good?

Second, I don't know where the man lives, it may very well be a "war zone". I also don't know what his past holds that established the mindset.

Third. Alarm=Ready=Reflex=Instinct. The target acquisition and elimination is what is and should be willful and analytical. Thinking about whether or not to ready will get you killed. The fact that it was the MIL is a non-issue, he had no prior knowledge and I think both learned from the experience.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:What do we need - three drills? One for the 1st floor (no basement) to go to low ready. Another for the 2nd floor of a 2 story building to (maybe?) go to high ready? And if the building is more than two stories, then what? Dive out the nearest window (along with your family of course)?

I don't follow you here.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:

Me wrote: When I clear a building, I have the weapon at "low ready" and will be at "high ready" entering a blind room. The last thing that happens is the finger going into the guard after I have ID'd the target and obtained a sight picture (a smooth split second move).

I think clearing a building is not what Cipher was doing and is at best a topic for another thread.

This was meant as an illustration to further elucidate the difference between "low ready", "high ready" and the target acquisition/elimination process. It had no bearing on the actual circumstance Cipher found himself in. My apologies that it was disconnected to the point that it was lost as a pertinent part of the post or this thread.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:
No one is getting slammed. Cipher didn't ask for support. He asked for advice. He's getting it.

I think that has been well covered by others. Nah, Cipher did okay. No one was hurt and he has learned something, as I suspect his MIL has.

Kyle

Edited multiple times to correct spelling and BB code.

We coulda/woulda/shoulda always done things differently or better. Aint hindsight great? Even better, when you are removed from the true emotion and immediacy of the actual situation, hindsight gets even better.

Could things have been done differently/better, yes, and I believe Cipher understands and will make appropriate adjustments.

I have joined and read this forum not only to get opinions on my own circumstances, but because I learn greatly from these threads including this one, and it has inspired me to make adjustments of my own concerning children, locked doors, inlaws barging in, etc. However, I have also learned that I need to think twice before offering myself up to the wolves. Getting bit can be expected, repeatedly eaten and regurgitated and eaten again is not necessary nor helpful criticism.

Some seem to criticize Cipher for not taking well the advice of those who do not agree with him. In reading this thread, it appears to me that the ones who feel the need to repeatedly attempt to drive home their opinion are actually the ones who are not taking well what the others are saying.

I for one, (right or wrong) always come to the door at night with my weapon. I do not open the (locked unless my son forgot)door until I have decided they are a friendly, and tell them I do not open the door at night otherwise. I do not wear a holster at home, so I suppose I am at "low ready" w/ finger on slide. To me this is little different from from Cipher's action.

CS

I for one, (right or wrong) always come to the door at night with my weapon. I do not open the (locked unless my son forgot)door until I have decided they are a friendly, and tell them I do not open the door at night otherwise. I do not wear a holster at home, so I suppose I am at "low ready" w/ finger on slide. To me this is little different from from Cipher's action.

I almost always carry at home and I do wear a holster - whatever one I'm using for street carry that day. So when I answer the door, I'm always armed. Sometimes concealed and sometimes not.

But I never draw out of "instinct", or because of any kind of programmed or trained response. And I never would. As it happens, I have never felt the need to draw on anyone so far.

Sure, I might be giving up a second or two in a real emergency. And there might be a tiny fraction of situations where that could translate into a significant tactical disadvantage.

But it seems to me that there are a lot more situations where drawing on instinct would cause me a lot of aggravation that I don't want or need.

So I'm willing to take my chances.

Anybody going to the Texas Tactical IDPA match on the 19th? I'm planning to try out my new Para Carry LDA.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:But I never draw out of "instinct", or because of any kind of programmed or trained response. And I never would. As it happens, I have never felt the need to draw on anyone so far

Frankie,

Having served in a combat zone on more than one occassion, you do develop reactions to situations. I would not call it instinct, but a learned reaction to a given situation. After returning from the first Gulf War, I had my family at Disney World. There was a nearby lightening strike and I had them all on the ground covering them up within 2 seconds. I felt kind of foolish but realized what caused it. It took a number of years to subside and yet I still have a very strong sense of situational awareness. Unless you've lived it, you cannot relate to it nor understand it.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:Sure, I might be giving up a second or two in a real emergency.

In the vast majority of situations, it will probably never make a difference.

I'm sure Cipher learned one thing from this--to keep quiet next time.

Tom

Unless you've lived it, you cannot relate to it nor understand it.

Whether I understand it or relate to it or not has nothing whatever to do with whether or not it was/is the appropriate reaction in any given case.

His biggest mistake was not locking his door.

His MIL intentionally entering the house without permission is worse than him forgetting to lock a door.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:Whether I understand it or relate to it or not has nothing whatever to do with whether or not it was/is the appropriate reaction in any given case.

It may not be appropriate according to your standards and you are entitled to your opinion just like the rest of us. Let's just agree to disagree on this point.

Tom

tbranch wrote:

frankie_the_yankee wrote:Whether I understand it or relate to it or not has nothing whatever to do with whether or not it was/is the appropriate reaction in any given case.

It may not be appropriate according to your standards and you are entitled to your opinion just like the rest of us. Let's just agree to disagree on this point.

Tom

Sure we can agree to disagree.

But I also believe that there is such a thing as objective truth. Everything isn't a matter of opinion.

In some states, the scenario as described could be construed as involving a criminal act - possibly under some twisted (in my opinion) interpretation of a DV law. (Please note: I am not saying that I think anything illegal was done. Just that under the laws of some states, but not TX, it's possible.) In that instance, if the person who had been given a view down the muzzle wanted to press charges, the actor might have to be dealing with the opinions of a bunch of jurors, both grand and petite.

And unless the actor's legal team attempted to get him off with some kind of diminished capacity defense, it will matter not one iota what combat training or combat experiences, good or bad, he may have had.

All the jury will be looking at is whether his actions met the test of those of a reasonable person, in their opinion, knowing what he knew at the time.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:In that instance, if the person who had been given a view down the muzzle wanted to press charges, the actor might have to be dealing with the opinions of a bunch of jurors, both grand and petite

I reread the OP.

Cipher wrote:About 10 feet from the door the door swings open and out of pure reflex I unholster, stop in my tracks, get in a good stance and bring the pistol to low ready.

The weapon was not pointed at anyone other than the floor. Nobody wound up looking down the muzzle. Did I miss something in this long thread?

frankie_the_yankee wrote:In some states, the scenario as described could be construed as involving a criminal act

This is the Texas CHL Forum and if we want to discuss the laws of other states there is an appropriate forum in which to do so.

frankie_the_yankee wrote:Please note: I am not saying that I think anything illegal was done

I agree with you that I don't think any Texas laws were broken.

Did he over-react? Perhaps, but I wasn't there. Is it how I would have reacted? Probably not. Go ahead and take the final shot--I'm done with this as it's not going anywhere.

Tom