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What is manual timing stuff ? I guess that means your not using a shot timer. Personally I dont even want to worry about a manual safety much less a slide rack between the time I make a shoot decision and the time that bullet impacts. Kiss for me. Some folks think only .1 others think how hard it is to get from a 1.0 to a
.9 first shot time from concealment.

[quote="SlowDave"]Just so you know it's not unanimous, I carry w/o one in the chamber. I carry "a club" and plan to give it to my attacker so HE will then have a club and I can whip his butt with my keychain while he tries to beat me to death with my useless firearm. [/sarcasm]


Dave, I don't think anyone is personally flaming you, i do think with the right training you will feel as comfortable with one in the chamber as you feel now about not having one ready. I understand you think they are equally as fast and that might be true standing in front of a target concentrating on your draw. the problem arises when other factor are involved, such as movement, low light no light, tunnel vision, wounds, all that training squared off at the target goes out the window

At the end of the day, We just want you to win the fight
bill

Bill wrote:Take a FOF class

A little force-on-force training puts the proof in the pudding.

Thanks for the feedback guys, and reasonable feedback at that! I appreciate that the majority feels that I am taking undue risk with regard to carrying without one in the chamber. I would be happy to have some force-on-force training, just haven't made the time/money available to this point.

The manual timing was someone with a stopwatch yelling "go" and hitting the start button and then hitting the stop button when the first shot was fired. Not a perfect measurement by any means, and I was drawing from a holster. As I recall, it was my OWB (outside waistband... dangit, now I have to spell it out ) holster. So results could be different with an IWB (inside ...) holster, but no way is it gonna be the 3-5 seconds that some have called out.

Appreciate the explanation of the club thing, but I think it is more typically someone just overstating things in an attempt to emphasize their point. I think that destroys your credibility. To your point, one could say that "a weapon w/o one in the chamber makes a poor club" but you could not say that it is only as useful as a club for self defense reasons. Unless of course, you are referring to a club that fires lethal rounds after a <0.1 sec delay for racking the slide.

Again, thanks for the feedback and I'll keep my eyes open for some good training courses.

p.s. If you still don't believe that someone can draw, rack the slide, and get off the first shot quickly, search back through for the youtube video of the guy drawing from an IWB holster under a t-shirt with amazing shooting. It's on here somewhere. But... he DID have both hands available. EDIT: here's one: youtube draw and rack... FAST!

"A handgun carried wiwthout a round chambered is a club, and not a very good one, IMO. ;)"

At first it seems a little scary to walk around knowing that you're one click of the safety away from flinging some rounds at someone, but having to chamber that round in the spur of the moment, or while being attacked is not an option. I got over the anxiety after about a week of carrying that way....it's always better to be prepared 100% for a bad situation....if you don't keep one chambered, why not keep the magazine in your pocket as well??? Just kidding, but you get my point. Good luck.

nils wrote:"At first it seems a little scary to walk around knowing that you're one click of the safety away from flinging some rounds at someone, but having to chamber that round in the spur of the moment, or while being attacked is not an option. I got over the anxiety after about a week of carrying that way....it's always better to be prepared 100% for a bad situation....if you don't keep one chambered, why not keep the magazine in your pocket as well??? Just kidding, but you get my point. Good luck.

Interesting. (I didn't include your sarcastic piece about the club, in an attempt to restore your credibility. )

But if you're really gonna be 100% prepared, shouldn't you carry the gun unholstered? The delay in racking the slide is much less than the delay to draw from a holster. So, we should walk around with our gun drawn and finger on the trigger to be "100% prepared for a bad situation." Okay, it's against the law, but if it wasn't, would you? Of course not. It's too risky and likely to end up with you putting some good guys in the hospital or grave. (Otherwise, the 4 rules are not needed.) So, there's an axis of readiness vs. safety, ranging from an unloaded gun with trigger lock in a safe on one end, to a drawn, aimed, loaded weapon with finger on the trigger on the other end. We all pick a spot on the scale. I'm not saying that those who carry with one in the chamber are morons waiting to Plaxico themselves, so can't be just back it down a notch and agree to disagree?

SlowDave wrote:

nils wrote:"At first it seems a little scary to walk around knowing that you're one click of the safety away from flinging some rounds at someone, but having to chamber that round in the spur of the moment, or while being attacked is not an option. I got over the anxiety after about a week of carrying that way....it's always better to be prepared 100% for a bad situation....if you don't keep one chambered, why not keep the magazine in your pocket as well??? Just kidding, but you get my point. Good luck.

Interesting. (I didn't include your sarcastic piece about the club, in an attempt to restore your credibility. )

But if you're really gonna be 100% prepared, shouldn't you carry the gun unholstered? The delay in racking the slide is much less than the delay to draw from a holster. So, we should walk around with our gun drawn and finger on the trigger to be "100% prepared for a bad situation." Okay, it's against the law, but if it wasn't, would you? Of course not. It's too risky and likely to end up with you putting some good guys in the hospital or grave. (Otherwise, the 4 rules are not needed.) So, there's an axis of readiness vs. safety, ranging from an unloaded gun with trigger lock in a safe on one end, to a drawn, aimed, loaded weapon with finger on the trigger on the other end. We all pick a spot on the scale. I'm not saying that those who carry with one in the chamber are morons waiting to Plaxico themselves, so can't be just back it down a notch and agree to disagree?

A properly functioning modern handgun is designed to carry with a round in the chamber, period. All you have to do is not pull the trigger. I can also tell you that time to draw from a proper holster until target acquisition should be considerably less than the time it takes you to pull the gun up from open carry, rack the slide and then acquire the target. Also, the holster is a added level of safety if it is properly designed and covers the trigger.

proper holster and proper training. a car is as much or more deadly than the gun... look at how many people it kills every year, or even every day. with proper training, the risk in driving a car can be minimized, same with a handgun.

Chamber one.

proper holster and proper training. a car is as much or more deadly than the gun... look at how many people it kills every year, or even every day. with proper training, the risk in driving a car can be minimized, same with a handgun.

Course people still die in car wrecks by the thousands...

If you're not comfortable having one in the chamber then you're not comfortable. Some poeple trust the mechnicals of a device more than others. Frankly we're a a board with a majoiryt of people who are substantially more paranoid, and rightly, than the average person, else CHLs wouldn't even be discussed. Its natural than there will be a number of persons who's 'greater sensitivity to what can go wrong' would naturally extend to mechnicals as well.

If you're not comfortable, practice popping that slide quickly from the draw. If you're worried make sure you have sights that can be set against something to cock one handed in extremis. Its better to have something you have to take a half second to cock than to not be comfortable enough to have anything at all.

frazzled wrote:

proper holster and proper training. a car is as much or more deadly than the gun... look at how many people it kills every year, or even every day. with proper training, the risk in driving a car can be minimized, same with a handgun.

Course people still die in car wrecks by the thousands...

If you're not comfortable having one in the chamber then you're not comfortable. Some poeple trust the mechnicals of a device more than others. Frankly we're a a board with a majoiryt of people who are substantially more paranoid, and rightly, than the average person, else CHLs wouldn't even be discussed. Its natural than there will be a number of persons who's 'greater sensitivity to what can go wrong' would naturally extend to mechnicals as well.

If you're not comfortable, practice popping that slide quickly from the draw. If you're worried make sure you have sights that can be set against something to cock one handed in extremis. Its better to have something you have to take a half second to cock than to not be comfortable enough to have anything at all.

agreed, people need to do what they're comfortable with. along with that, training will build their confidence and make them more comfortable. training includes your normal carry position and setup, so train how you carry and how you'd react in a situation, otherwise training is no good.

frazzled wrote:Frankly we're a a board with a majoiryt of people who are substantially more paranoid, and rightly, than the average person, else CHLs wouldn't even be discussed.

Paranoia is a mental illness characterized by delusions of persecution (by the CIA or the Illuminati, for instance).

I think that arming oneself is a reasonable precaution against violent crime, which is a very real phenomenon. It's no different from wearing a seat belt or having a fire extinguisher.

Caution about the possibility of an accidental discharge is natural. If you have been through any formal firearms training, you are conditioned never to point a loaded weapon anywhere but down a hot range (sometimes by being slapped upside the head). Now we're telling you to point one at your leg. I've explained several times how to deal with this problem.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote: Paranoia is a mental illness characterized by delusions of persecution (by the CIA or the Illuminati, for instance).

"You're only paranoid if you're wrong." Former CEO of Intel

Caution about the possibility of an accidental discharge is natural. If you have been through any formal firearms training, you are conditioned never to point a loaded weapon anywhere but down a hot range (sometimes by being slapped upside the head). Now we're telling you to point one at your leg. I've explained several times how to deal with this problem.

- Jim

Respectable statement. However, there will be many who just won't trust a piece of machinery to that degree. They are too "sensitive to potentials" or have lived through too many Murphy moments to think that training is gonna cut it.

*There are the above who believe a good machine, maintained properly, with good kit, and good training will insure there is no issue. Good for them.

*There are those who have seen god machines break down, and have weighed the low risk of that versus the penalty if it did so and choose not to. Again, good for them.

*And as has been noted, if you’re in the second group, a third option is available, to go for a double action model, and thus meeting both concerns. If you’re not confident enough in the mechanicals/life chances to go with one in the chanmber, but are worried about the time and need to have one in the chamber already, then go with a DA type. There are a painfully large variety of 9mms, 40s, and even .45s that will accommodate such.

Everyone wins.

There are those who have seen [good] machines break down ...

The internal safety mechanisms of firearms can break or get gummed up, but they are designed to be fail safe. No single point of failure will cause a modern handgun to discharge.

(However, for most there are many single points of failure that will cause them not to fire.)

- Jim