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TEX wrote:No knock warrants should be banned - period.

This is fine to say, but no politician or judge is going to get elected by being "soft on crime" or labeled as hostile to police.

The vast majority of people—even reasonably informed voters—don't care about these issues. I have talked to people about incidents like this one. Usually they say the shooter should have known the cops were cops, or "why did he need a gun anyway?"

- Jim

...as long as it doesn't rock their world(or family), most folks won't stand up with someone else on this kind of thing...but let it be THEM or THEIRS affected...they'll yowl like a cat in a clothes dryer...(don't ask)...we've become a nation of "nice" guys who don't want to get involved, don't want to stir up a fuss, and don't want to stick our necks out...sorry...THEIR necks...I don't run with that crowd!!!

No Knocks sound like a quick way to get a cop killed and a shooter, whether he's a bad guy or not, off the hook - in a perfect world. There are a LOT of other good ways to nab a BG. But busting down the door of what the LEOs would know to be a possibly armed person in the middle of the night is NOT one of them. This happened during a drug ring crackdown in Houston recently. Luckily, the cop survived and the BG went to jail. It happens that the cop goes to the morgue once, you would think that was one too many times. And the manual would need to be re-written.

txjim42 wrote:Out of curiosity, is there a reason to nab the BG in the home vs. grabbing him as he walks out the door in the morning bleary-eyed, tired and with a do-nut stuck in his face as he fumbles to pull the front door closed on his way to work? Or someplace else that where he doesn't have home-court advantage? Just seems like a poor strategy bust the door down and storm the castle.

Nor I. That's my big issue with the raid on the Davidians years ago. Koresh regularly made trips into town (IIRC, he had a dentist appointment in town a couple days before the raid, and regularly went into town to the local barber shop). He could have been taken quietly and we'd likely NEVER have heard of the Branch Davidians. But those types of arrests don't make good news copy. Lot of LEO heads want to show off their 'toys' (SWAT teams are the ultimate toy for LEO heads and local polly-tic-ians) to show they're 'though on crime'. Watch your local news and see how many times they run a story about a 'raid' and you see footage of guys all dressed up in black tacti-cool holding ARs standing around after the fact. It's mostly for show (yes, there ARE times when it's justified, but this one didn't appear to be one of those). And the sad thing is that, time and again, lives are lost for the sake of the show.

Vault-door that looks like a residential 6-panel door. I wonder how tough this thing really is if appropriately framed....

http://www.browning.com/products/catalo ... e_id=39581

txjim42 wrote:Vault-door that looks like a residential 6-panel door. I wonder how tough this thing really is if appropriately framed....

http://www.browning.com/products/catalo ... e_id=39581

$4200 If I was a billionaire and designing my own home, sure.

The show started to get ridiculous, so I don't watch it anymore, but I remember one episode by Michael Weston ("burned" space "spy") who likes to give helpful "spy" space "tips" to the audience watching the show (Burn Notice), that a lot of times when someone (like a drug dealer) reinforces a door, the wall just next to it has no reinforcement and is super easy to break through.

Thomas wrote:

txjim42 wrote:Vault-door that looks like a residential 6-panel door. I wonder how tough this thing really is if appropriately framed....

http://www.browning.com/products/catalo ... e_id=39581

$4200 If I was a billionaire and designing my own home, sure.

The show started to get ridiculous, so I don't watch it anymore, but I remember one episode by Michael Weston ("burned" space "spy") who likes to give helpful "spy" space "tips" to the audience watching the show (Burn Notice), that a lot of times when someone (like a drug dealer) reinforces a door, the wall just next to it has no reinforcement and is super easy to break through.

And of course the BG always stands right beside the door on the inside, just like the GG stands right beside the door on the outside while they converse... TV-intelligent/TV-tactical.

That's retail cost, but yeah even at 2500-3000... Ouch. That's not something -I- would use in multiples, but if I were to build a gun-room, er, I mean steel reinforced tornado/safe-room in a house here in tornado alley, something like that might be an option to consider.

If I was a billionaire, the portals to my "secure suite and bat-cave" wouldn't look like doors and you wouldn't know they were there.
Oh and there might be one or more of these in the flowerbeds/trees. http://www.fnherstal.com/index.php?id=658

Okay so maybe I could afford some motion sensors and cameras....

Thomas wrote:

txjim42 wrote:Vault-door that looks like a residential 6-panel door. I wonder how tough this thing really is if appropriately framed....

http://www.browning.com/products/catalo ... e_id=39581

$4200 If I was a billionaire and designing my own home, sure.

Ok, maybe if i ever win the lottery and get some really nice toys i'll buy something like that, under normal circumstances, the dead bolt should hold long enough for me to draw my Beretta

txjim42 wrote:If I was a billionaire, the portals to my "secure suite and bat-cave" wouldn't look like doors and you wouldn't know they were there.
Oh and there might be one or more of these in the flowerbeds/trees. http://www.fnherstal.com/index.php?id=658

To prevent SWAT invasion I would keep a wasps nest or a beehive on my porch and never use my porch again. This plan needs some thinking thru

...a quality storm door with a deadbolt lock will cause invaders to make enough noise prying it open to buy you time to grab whatever before they kick open the inner door...a real deadbolt...not the tiny one on the pretty locksets...no need to spend thousands...

An even more fool proof device is a corrigated roll up steel door. The small personell door size is extremely hard to breach because of the steel channels that it runs in. Also once breached it leaves a real tangle of sharp edged metal to cross before the main door can be attacked. Also they are easily manually or electrically operated by toggle switch from inside so open it in the morning and close it at night and sleep tight. They also make shorter ones for windows if you live in tornado alley. About $600 per opening.

Gyrogearhead wrote:An even more fool proof device is a corrigated roll up steel door. The small personell door size is extremely hard to breach because of the steel channels that it runs in. Also once breached it leaves a real tangle of sharp edged metal to cross before the main door can be attacked. Also they are easily manually or electrically operated by toggle switch from inside so open it in the morning and close it at night and sleep tight. They also make shorter ones for windows if you live in tornado alley. About $600 per opening.

I know what I'm getting for my zombie fortress now.

Thomas wrote:

Gyrogearhead wrote:An even more fool proof device is a corrigated roll up steel door. The small personell door size is extremely hard to breach because of the steel channels that it runs in. Also once breached it leaves a real tangle of sharp edged metal to cross before the main door can be attacked. Also they are easily manually or electrically operated by toggle switch from inside so open it in the morning and close it at night and sleep tight. They also make shorter ones for windows if you live in tornado alley. About $600 per opening.

I know what I'm getting for my zombie fortress now.

You'll want to go to an industrial roll-up door manufacturer for the industrial strength model. The plastic ones that are advertised on TV are fine for appearances and flying rocks but the industrial doors will usually stop 9mm or smaller whereas the plastic ones for "domestic" use will not.

They can be had in galvanized or powder coated grey and the "roll" can be placed inside the wall above the door so its bulk is not so noticable. Also if you get the electric one it works on a worm drive usually and cannot be opened from the outside by hook or crook, but you'll need a plan B for power failures. Extra cost item is a manual inside crank that will work you to death but it'll get the door open eventually.

Just food for thought.

Gerry

srothstein wrote: As a slight topic drift, this is even more an argument to stop the so called war on drugs than it is about the militarization of police. Another good man has been sacrificed to this cause, which can never be won.