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LaUser wrote:Forcing the accused to prove their innocence is not what this country is about.

I take it you have never had to deal with the IRS or the tax courts!

LaUser wrote: So, do any of the people who say his birth certificate is flawed have proof of that or are they just spreading rumors and hate because they do not like the fact he got elected.

Obama does not have to put up, the accusers do. Forcing the accused to prove their innocence is not what this country is about.

That was the whole purpose of the subpoena requiring Obama to provide the birth certificate. It is a state document, and it is the necessary and obvious evidence to either confirm or deny the accusation. So yes, the accusers have a valid cause to make an accusation.

But the thing is this is a lawsuit, and not a criminal matter. The state is not bringing charges against Obama. I actually think they should. Unfortunately there is a very flawed history of bringing charges against a sitting president, which is why this matter needed to be resolved prior to the election. There was perfectly valid cause to question Obama's eligibility to become president and it is incumbent on the Justice Department to investigate these questions and bring charges against Obama for election fraud before the election occurs. This lawsuit was brought about a long, long time before Obama was the Democrat nominee. But the DOJ sat on their hands as did the courts all the way up and the reason why is because nobody wanted to go on record as opposing the candidacy of the first viable black presidential candidate over an issue that the general public would perceive as a technicality.

mr.72 wrote: because nobody wanted to go on record as opposing the candidacy of the first viable black presidential candidate over an issue that the general public would perceive as a technicality.

If he truly was proven to be ineligible to be President, then it would be hard for anyone to call it a technicality.

OTOH, If bambam and his minions wanted to serve up a distractor, this will do. Bambam and his co-conspirators get a whole bunch of people concentrating and wasting money on essentially a non-issue while they could be pointing out real problems.

Once again, this is just like assuming someone is guilty just because they took the Fifth Amendment.

Bambam is under no obligation, Constitutional or otherwise, to present his birth certificate, did anyone even ask for Reagan' s, either Bush's, or anyone else's? Yes, this is probably the first time it has come up, which makes it an ideal opportunity to incorporate proof of citizenship into the law, which might very well block a second term for someone who was elected improperly the first time, but all this snivelling and posturing accomplishes absolutely nothing and he's laughing at you.

My grandpappy always told me not to get down in the mud and wrassle with the pig because it didn't accomplish anything and the pig enjoyed it, you guys are wrassleing with the pig.

How else would someone prove they are a natural born citizen? Oh because I said so. How do you know even you were born in the U.S.? Do you remember when you were first born that you were born here, ummmm no? I will tell you how, it is called your Birth Certificate. And the Certificate of Live Birth that is on the net, has been proven a fake by a professional.

I am a professional and it looked good to me.

Unfortunately there are a lot of conspiracy theorists out there. They are not going to give up on anything they can latch on to and try get folks to go along with their rhetoric. If they did, they would be bored and have nothing to do.

Keith B wrote: Unfortunately there are a lot of conspiracy theorists out there. They are not going to give up on anything they can latch on to and try get folks to go along with their rhetoric. If they did, they would be bored and have nothing to do.

Except wrassle with the pig.

jimlongley wrote:Though somewhat obscure, the onl provenance necessary to be a "natural born citizen" is being the child of one, doesn't matter where the person is born, the child of a citizen is a citizen.

Absolutely not true. I was born in South Korea to a mother who was a South Korean citizen and a father who was an American citizen. Since I was premature, and the only 2 incubators in all of South Korea were in a civilian hospital, I was born there.

Since I was not born on a US military installation, which is US soil, I was born a citizen of South Korea, not the United States, even though my father was a US citizen. I had to become a naturalized US citizen and have a Certificate of Citizenship from the US State Department to prove it.

The fact is, anyone born on US soil is a US citizen - hence, all the illegals who come here from Mexico to have anchor babies. Hawaii was US soil at the time Obama was born - therefore, he is a natural born US citizen and meets the Constitutional requirements to hold the office of President.

The same argument was made against McCain's candidacy by the Left. He was born in the Panama Canal Zone. However, since the PCZ was under US jurisdiction and control - much as US military bases overseas are - it was considered US soil and he is also a natural born US citizen.

My daughter was born in Isfahan, Iran , in a civilian hospital. My wife & I are both US citizens and were civilians at the time. Her birth certificate from the State Department says "Certificate of Birth of US Citizen Abroad". She is a Natural Born Citizen of the US. The Constitution says "Natural Born" not "Native Born".

Kythas wrote:

jimlongley wrote: The same argument was made against McCain's candidacy by the Left. He was born in the Panama Canal Zone. However, since the PCZ was under US jurisdiction and control - much as US military bases overseas are - it was considered US soil and he is also a natural born US citizen.

Strangely enough, congress, led by Patrick Lehey and Claire McCaskell sent a nonbinding resolution through congress that was passed unanimously passed, affirming McCain's eligibility.

But the Cert of Live Birth is crap. Where is the Birth Certificate. Look here http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atla ... usive.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Also U.S. law did say you have to live in US for 10yrs and 5yrs since the age of 14. Obama's mother was 18 at the time of birth. So simple math is 14+5=19. So he doesn't qualify.

Kythas wrote: The fact is, anyone born on US soil is a US citizen - hence, all the illegals who come here from Mexico to have anchor babies. Hawaii was US soil at the time Obama was born - therefore, he is a natural born US citizen and meets the Constitutional requirements to hold the office of President.

Without dealing with the other errors in your post, the charge is not that Obama, being born in Hawaii, is somehow not a natural born citizen. The charge is that Obama was not in fact born in Hawaii, but in Kenya, to non-American parents. Obama's relatives have made this claim (and yet either been silenced or retracted the claim) and one person who could have validated the claim independent of any other proof died a short while ago in Hawaii.

And sorry, Jim, but this is not a ruse thought up by Obama. In fact this whole debate is certainly not any benefit to Obama. And the fact that so many people even here on this forum cannot understand the difference between a Natural Born citizen and a Naturalized Citizen is why I say that the public at large, including probably the majority of this forum's membership, would see this distinction as splitting hairs or some wacky technicality which is why it was not pursued seriously by the mainstream of Obama's political enemies before the election.

And by the way, the reason Reagan et. al. did not have to produce proof of their citizenship is because they did not have a grandmother who reported that they were present at their birth in a foreign country to foreign parents. The fact is that this is a valid question that Obama refuses to answer. Now I don't blame him for refusing to answer, but I do blame the courts for not compelling him to answer and I frankly blame the Bush Justice Dept. for not investigating this claim and putting a lid on it when there was a chance. It's not like Bush was trying to preserve some political capital. He was a lame duck. No reason at all not to go vet this accusation that Obama was not born in the USA and either confirm Obama's legitimacy in the election or press charges of election fraud.

mr.72 wrote:

Kythas wrote: The fact is, anyone born on US soil is a US citizen - hence, all the illegals who come here from Mexico to have anchor babies. Hawaii was US soil at the time Obama was born - therefore, he is a natural born US citizen and meets the Constitutional requirements to hold the office of President.

Without dealing with the other errors in your post, the charge is not that Obama, being born in Hawaii, is somehow not a natural born citizen. The charge is that Obama was not in fact born in Hawaii, but in Kenya, to non-American parents. Obama's relatives have made this claim (and yet either been silenced or retracted the claim) and one person who could have validated the claim independent of any other proof died a short while ago in Hawaii.

And sorry, Jim, but this is not a ruse thought up by Obama. In fact this whole debate is certainly not any benefit to Obama. And the fact that so many people even here on this forum cannot understand the difference between a Natural Born citizen and a Naturalized Citizen is why I say that the public at large, including probably the majority of this forum's membership, would see this distinction as splitting hairs or some wacky technicality which is why it was not pursued seriously by the mainstream of Obama's political enemies before the election.

And by the way, the reason Reagan et. al. did not have to produce proof of their citizenship is because they did not have a grandmother who reported that they were present at their birth in a foreign country to foreign parents. The fact is that this is a valid question that Obama refuses to answer. Now I don't blame him for refusing to answer, but I do blame the courts for not compelling him to answer and I frankly blame the Bush Justice Dept. for not investigating this claim and putting a lid on it when there was a chance. It's not like Bush was trying to preserve some political capital. He was a lame duck. No reason at all not to go vet this accusation that Obama was not born in the USA and either confirm Obama's legitimacy in the election or press charges of election fraud.

I never said it was a ruse thought up by bambam, just that he is taking advantage of the static being generated by the whole non-issue. His grandmother saying he wasn't born here should at a minimum be negated by his mother, father, and the state of Hawaii saying he was born there, and can you prove that Reagan wasn't born in Canada? How about Abraham Lincoln, which state was he born in?

The simple fact is that there is no proof of "natural bornness" incorporated in the presidential election process and unless and until someone gets a law or amendment passed to make it necessary for a candidate to provide a valid birth certificate to prove where they were born, then this kind of situation can and will exist. Until now it has been pretty much assumed that a candidate

Bambam's benefit from this is that he gets a lot of people concentrating on the issue, and when these same people also object to one or another of his new policies, he gets to point out their obvious location on the fringe.

Suffice it to say, 72, that your arguements haven't convinced me and I dislike bambam as much as anyone, so it's doubtful that you will convince his believers.

As to the question of the birth certificate seen on the web, I understand it does not look like any birth ceritficate issued anywhere in the state of Hawaii in the early 1960's. Also, the Democrat governor of Hawaii stating, "I've seen the original, looks good to me", ain't what I call convincing evidence. Obama could make all this go away tomorrow, by authorizing the release of the vault copy of the original, why won't he? And his legal claim is not the accusations are bogus, but the plaintiffs don't have legal standing. Why, I wonder?

During all the years of Reagan, Bush 41 and Bush 43, the usual Democrat song was "It's not the nature of the evidence, it's the seriousness of the charges" rag, followed by the "It's the APPEARANCE of impropriety" blues. It's seems now they are singing a different tune, something like "Charlie Brown (Why's Everybody Alway's Pickin' On Me)", and "Leave Me Alone". But I guess as long as we get womb to the tomb healthcare and soak it those rich jerks tax policy, there can be no questioning of our Dear Leader.

jimlongley wrote:

mr.72 wrote:

Kythas wrote: The fact is, anyone born on US soil is a US citizen - hence, all the illegals who come here from Mexico to have anchor babies. Hawaii was US soil at the time Obama was born - therefore, he is a natural born US citizen and meets the Constitutional requirements to hold the office of President.

Without dealing with the other errors in your post, the charge is not that Obama, being born in Hawaii, is somehow not a natural born citizen. The charge is that Obama was not in fact born in Hawaii, but in Kenya, to non-American parents. Obama's relatives have made this claim (and yet either been silenced or retracted the claim) and one person who could have validated the claim independent of any other proof died a short while ago in Hawaii.

And sorry, Jim, but this is not a ruse thought up by Obama. In fact this whole debate is certainly not any benefit to Obama. And the fact that so many people even here on this forum cannot understand the difference between a Natural Born citizen and a Naturalized Citizen is why I say that the public at large, including probably the majority of this forum's membership, would see this distinction as splitting hairs or some wacky technicality which is why it was not pursued seriously by the mainstream of Obama's political enemies before the election.

And by the way, the reason Reagan et. al. did not have to produce proof of their citizenship is because they did not have a grandmother who reported that they were present at their birth in a foreign country to foreign parents. The fact is that this is a valid question that Obama refuses to answer. Now I don't blame him for refusing to answer, but I do blame the courts for not compelling him to answer and I frankly blame the Bush Justice Dept. for not investigating this claim and putting a lid on it when there was a chance. It's not like Bush was trying to preserve some political capital. He was a lame duck. No reason at all not to go vet this accusation that Obama was not born in the USA and either confirm Obama's legitimacy in the election or press charges of election fraud.

I never said it was a ruse thought up by bambam, just that he is taking advantage of the static being generated by the whole non-issue. His grandmother saying he wasn't born here should at a minimum be negated by his mother, father, and the state of Hawaii saying he was born there, and can you prove that Reagan wasn't born in Canada? How about Abraham Lincoln, which state was he born in?

The simple fact is that there is no proof of "natural bornness" incorporated in the presidential election process and unless and until someone gets a law or amendment passed to make it necessary for a candidate to provide a valid birth certificate to prove where they were born, then this kind of situation can and will exist. Until now it has been pretty much assumed that a candidate

Bambam's benefit from this is that he gets a lot of people concentrating on the issue, and when these same people also object to one or another of his new policies, he gets to point out their obvious location on the fringe.

Suffice it to say, 72, that your arguements haven't convinced me and I dislike bambam as much as anyone, so it's doubtful that you will convince his believers.

Jim I have a problem with you stating that Hawaii has stated that Obama was born in Hawaii. Please provide the exact quote and cite the source of the Hawaiin official who has stated that Obama was born in Hawaii.