Drew on a guy today

[nitrogen]

These kinds of incidents will be what kills us, CHL's thinking they are cops, stopping and pulling their guns like they are armed Guardian Angels.

Anyone that's spent time in NYC knows about the Guardian Angels, started by Curtis Sliwa back in the early '80's. The only thing worse than a nosy LEO who violates your rights professionally is an amateur who does it.

If you have a CHL, You. Are. Not. A. Cop. Don't play pretend, PLEASE.

[Oldgringo]

nitrogen wrote:

If you have a CHL, You. Are. Not. A. Cop. Don't play pretend, PLEASE.

and furthermore, this truism can not be over emphasized in CHL classes. It should be test question nos. 2, 31 and 47...IMO.

[C-dub]

I find that a lot of people post without carefully reading the original post. I find that if I reread a posting, I no longer have a need to reply because I misunderstood what I read the first time. I did not present my weapon until he had come out of his vehicle and was approaching mine and was within 5-7 ft of my door. That is when I felt I was in danger, not at any other time. My weapon was on my lap because I am left handed and it is impossible to draw with your left hand and fire out the drivers door. For you right handed people, sit in the passenger seat and try it. I chose to be cautious. It all happened very fast. There was not time to think. The purpose of the post was to discuss what went through my mind as it was happening.

This incident has caused me to think a lot about "being a good witness". We live in a violence ridden society. Yes, there are worse than ours. I also recall that there were many, many witnesses to what happened to the Jews. They did nothing and look at the results. Many crimes are witnessed and a report taken, nothing else is ever done. If we all agree to be good witnesses, our country will decline. We will have our government pass laws that restrict our freedom and our right to purchase ammo and to bear arms. I want to live in a safe neighborhood and know the police cannot make it safe for use. Being a "good witness" will do nothing to make your neighborhood safer. What are we to do? The same old thing and latch the decline? I do not have the answer. I am just doing a lot of thinking.

Ron

I'm okay with you pulling your gun because you felt threatened as he approached you while ranting about whatever. It might not have been legally justified, but I understand your fear. Really, I do. However, do you really want to equate some guy dumping trash on the side of the road to the holocaust?

[marksiwel]

I'm okay with you pulling your gun because you felt threatened as he approached you while ranting about whatever. It might not have been legally justified, but I understand your fear. Really, I do. However, do you really want to equate some guy dumping trash on the side of the road to the holocaust?

You dont

[The Annoyed Man]

My weapon was on my lap because I am left handed and it is impossible to draw with your left hand and fire out the drivers door. For you right handed people, sit in the passenger seat and try it.

I'll give you that. I am left handed too, and it isn't easy to draw your weapon when sitting in the driver's seat. I still don't know if drawing down was the right thing to do, but I'm not going to pile on any further.

[Dragonfighter]

I find that a lot of people post without carefully reading the original post. I find that if I reread a posting, I no longer have a need to reply because I misunderstood what I read the first time. I did not present my weapon until he had come out of his vehicle and was approaching mine and was within 5-7 ft of my door. That is when I felt I was in danger, not at any other time. My weapon was on my lap because I am left handed and it is impossible to draw with your left hand and fire out the drivers door. For you right handed people, sit in the passenger seat and try it. I chose to be cautious. It all happened very fast. There was not time to think. The purpose of the post was to discuss what went through my mind as it was happening.

This incident has caused me to think a lot about "being a good witness". We live in a violence ridden society. Yes, there are worse than ours. I also recall that there were many, many witnesses to what happened to the Jews. They did nothing and look at the results. Many crimes are witnessed and a report taken, nothing else is ever done. If we all agree to be good witnesses, our country will decline. We will have our government pass laws that restrict our freedom and our right to purchase ammo and to bear arms. I want to live in a safe neighborhood and know the police cannot make it safe for use. Being a "good witness" will do nothing to make your neighborhood safer. What are we to do? The same old thing and latch the decline? I do not have the answer. I am just doing a lot of thinking.

Ron

If I may, priusron is absolutely correct. As I read through the thread, time and again opinions were given based erroneously on what they thought were in the OP. That said...

One thing that jumped out at me was, "I watched him in my rearview mirror and it looked like he was dumping trash." He did not say that prior to investigation, he knew what he was doing. Myself as well as several other neighbors have had occasion to investigate "suspicious" behavior around one another's residence, generally speaking this would be non-confrontational (distant observation) or polite challenge, I.E. "Can I help you?" Which brings me to the critique.

You are living in an isolated rural area and someone crosses onto yours or your neighbor's property and engages in suspicious behavior, you can not ignore it as you can not be certain what degree of no good is being enacted. I would, given the OP scenario, observe from a distance suitable to ascertain what he was doing , get vehicle, license number, etc. IF I thought there may be reason to intervene I may close to within loud talking distance and politely inform the guy that he is on private property, that he needs to pick up his refuse and leave, if he does so then everybody wins, if he keeps doing it but is NOT confrontational, I (this is me acting on the information in the OP) may simply retreat to the vehicle and observe until LEOs arrive or the guy leaves. If he gets froggy then firm but calm commands to stand down may be in order, if he continues to close going to a ready position and backing up, if he's got his hands in his pockets and is closing on me, I will be afraid and act accordingly. Keeping the family out of harm's way and immediate and continued communication with 911 is paramount. There are a lot of BIG ifs in this scenario and my speculation is based on the limited information from priusron.

What I would not do given similar occurrences is ignore it or fail to mitigate the situation, priusron was in the right here. I also would NOT block in a bad guy, place myself or family in close enough proximity where escalation may occur before I make the decision or am prepared for it; nor would I take an aggressor's stance in my initial contact. IMHO the latter is where priusron made a mistake. Once engaged, the actions of the BG would certainly inspire me to ready myself (have the weapon handy) if not present the weapon.

One final thing, a lot of posters have hung there hat on the non-justification by "in response to verbal provocation alone;" verbiage but the opening paragraph of this oft repeated statute says in paragraph (a), " Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force."

I want to be clear, I do believe that priusron made multiple errors in aggressively approaching and blocking the egress of the BG creating an immediately hostile engagement, especially with family members there but "wherever you go, there you are" and he then had to respond to the BG's aggressive actions. He did alright and in the end, everyone went home.

[The Sarge]

I live in rural Kendall County....people dump dogs/kittens/trash in some of the back roads here....
I would never dream of blocking a total stranger with my family in the car....escalating the situation...placing my family in danger....this is wrong on so many levels it is mind boggling!
I write their license plate down and have taken a picture on occasion..the Kendall County Sherrifs office will trace the number down and contact them....either they pick up the trash and pay the fine or the county picks it up and sends them a bill along with the fine...don't pay and the good Judge issues an arrest warrant....no guns drawn...no family put in harms way....all very simple and just being a smart citizen helping out the LEO's without gunfire.
This is the exact type of behavior that anti gun people crave.....
As CHL holders we have a duty to a higher level of calmness and common sense.

[snorri]

It's one of the best uses for camera phones.

[03Lightningrocks]

One final thing, a lot of posters have hung there hat on the non-justification by "in response to verbal provocation alone;" verbiage but the opening paragraph of this oft repeated statute says in paragraph (a), " Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force."

I am not in possession of the exact legal wording of this, but is there not something written in that same area of the statute about this not being good reason to use deadly force if the person using the deadly force does something to instigate the situation to begin with?

For instance...I can't provoke a person on the street by acting in a threatening or abusive manner and then blast him because he approaches me while yelling.

Here is thought for you...had I been the guy in the truck being blocked, I would have ducked behind my vehicle and pulled my weapon thinking you were threatening my life. i would have no way of knowing if you are a vigilante or a wild hill billy planning to violate me. Had you started firing, I would have won the gun fight because I am moving and you are trapped in the drivers seat of your truck. I guess you are lucky he was not a chl-er himself...or maybe lucky he did not have a weapon on him. He had the tactical advantage.

[03Lightningrocks]

These kinds of incidents will be what kills us, CHL's thinking they are cops, stopping and pulling their guns like they are armed Guardian Angels.

Anyone that's spent time in NYC knows about the Guardian Angels, started by Curtis Sliwa back in the early '80's. The only thing worse than a nosy LEO who violates your rights professionally is an amateur who does it.

If you have a CHL, You. Are. Not. A. Cop. Don't play pretend, PLEASE.

This can not be said enough!!! I have no idea what it is about a CHL that makes a person think they are a cop. Fortunately, most of us don't grow extra hair on our chests because we have a license to carry a weapon.

[koolaid]

I am not in possession of the exact legal wording of this, but is there not something written in that same area of the statute about this not being good reason to use deadly force if the person using the deadly force does something to instigate the situation to begin with?

For instance...I can't provoke a person on the street by acting in a threatening or abusive manner and then blast him because he approaches me while yelling.

That seems to be correct. You can find it here.

The only exception appears to be if you communicate clearly your intent to back down and the other person continues with the activity that justified the use of deadly force.

(not a lawyer)

[marksiwel]

If the OP had shot the guy, he would be looking at murder charges right now. My wife is a LAW Student, and I posted his Post on Facebook, their verdict, Manslaughter 1st degree at least

[Dragonfighter]

Here is thought for you...had I been the guy in the truck being blocked, I would have ducked behind my vehicle and pulled my weapon thinking you were threatening my life. i would have no way of knowing if you are a vigilante or a wild hill billy planning to violate me. Had you started firing, I would have won the gun fight because I am moving and you are trapped in the drivers seat of your truck. I guess you are lucky he was not a chl-er himself...or maybe lucky he did not have a weapon on him. He had the tactical advantage.

I don't think we disagree here, note my statements:

Keeping the family out of harm's way and immediate and continued communication with 911 is paramount.

AND

I also would NOT block in a bad guy, place myself or family in close enough proximity where escalation may occur before I make the decision or am prepared for it; nor would I take an aggressor's stance in my initial contact.

Tactical error to be sure and an immediate escalation without a good analysis of the situation. I gave a "what if" critique based on the information provided. Where I took issue with was what seemed as a PIDAH situation wherein several critical posts were made and several of them made critical statements toward priusron based on points not even in the OP.

I particularly agreed with him when he stated, "I find that a lot of people post without carefully reading the original post. I find that if I reread a posting, I no longer have a need to reply because I misunderstood what I read the first time." and also the gist of the remainder wherein I might have paraphrased, "Terrible things happen when good people do nothing." I also agree with him when he opines that we as a society will disintegrate if we do not do what is in our power to <barney fife>"Nip it in the bud."</barney fife>.

That said, there were some serious errors and I believe I touched on those as well.

[Hos]

I read every post before posting so I will try not to repeat info which a large minority of posts have done towards you...

Many crimes are witnessed and a report taken, nothing else is ever done. If we all agree to be good witnesses, our country will decline. I want to live in a safe neighborhood and know the police cannot make it safe for use. Being a "good witness" will do nothing to make your neighborhood safer.

It sounded like LEO showed up quickly. So ...you were a good witness and the LEO was there to catch the perp so I don't see the issue of "nothing being done" but I understand the anxiety that LEO may not show up for a long time and the perp gets away but that was not the case here, but I realize that's "monday morning quarterbacking."

He never asked to see my weapon or told me that I was in the wrong for displaying my weapon

I hope that is not seen as a justification, may of just been some strange "no harm no foul" discretion but not necessarily an endorsement.

Thanks again for your intregity in posting for we're all ready to learn from reading these great posts as opposed to learning the hard way in the real world of split second decision-making. God Bless.

[KD5NRH]

If you have a CHL, You. Are. Not. A. Cop. Don't play pretend, PLEASE.

Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent upon every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.

I'm pretty sure he knew more about it than you do.