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I don't like the bus. (public transportation)

Should taxpayers give me a voucher to subsidize my choice of private transportation?

mojo84 wrote:How does the literacy rate of today's USA compare with 1890, 1950 or 1980? How about the subjects being taught. Was calculus and some of the more advanced level subjects being taught in those prior years?

I don't know of any specific studies or statistics off the top of my head. However, take a look at something like the Little House on the Prairie series and see what sort of material was expected of the students of those little one-room schoolhouses. I'd have to dig around a little for it, but I seem to recall Laura and a classmate being expected to recite the history of the United States for some sort of exhibition. Dates, names, major events, etc. Not to mention those spelling bees. I doubt the average student would learn something like Calculus, but advanced math would probably have been available to some.

We're trying to shape our educational process more like back then than like now, I think. Lots of memorization and drill in the early years. Big emphasis on history, historic literature, and reading from original sources rather than textbooks. You learn to learn like that, and you can teach yourself anything you want to know.

nightmare wrote:

SewTexas wrote:you threw an disagreement out there, but no solution, that's not playing fair around here, we tend to expect an decent argument, not "that's not the right way".

It sounded like there was an implied suggestion that the current system, warts and all, was a better answer than the proposal put forth to hand out vouchers and take more control away from the people paying.

possibly that was her suggestion. when there is disagreement, I tend to not assume anything.

Cedar Park Dad wrote:
Facts not anecdotes help to support your statement, else you're just blowing crazy smoke nonsense.
Would you prefer India? They didn't have public education either. In the 19th Century the US was an educational powerhouse and bleeding edge nation in public education. In the 20th century the opening of higher education to all continued that.

If you believe that, thats fine, but you're coming off as ranting. Texas public schools are run by local people and school boards doing the best they can with the resources they have. Some school districts are better than others. Some schools are better than others.

But guess what, government is going to take money from you and spend it on things you may not like. Thats the way the world is.

If you want some facts, as has been mentioned before, do a google search on common core. You will have all the facts you need. As for school districts being under local control....what do you think standardized testing is for? The schools must teach to the test thus you lose control of your local schools. If the test says capitalism is an unfair immoral system and everyone must pass the test....guess what will be taught.

The 19th century was a long time ago. The 20th century schools were on the fritz. Today students are in a heap of trouble. They are tested so much from such an early age that it is insane.

What do I want? Well an equitable system is too much to hope for. How about they take my money, teach the poor kids that are stuck with the school system we have to read, write, and do basic math, let the kids have recess for heavens sakes, and music and art. Don't abuse them. Don't stick them in sacks or any of the other crappola I have heard of recently. Don't send 8 year olds home with two hours of homework. Then for the cherry of top, they leave me the ..... alone to teach my kids.

MotherBear wrote:

mojo84 wrote:How does the literacy rate of today's USA compare with 1890, 1950 or 1980? How about the subjects being taught. Was calculus and some of the more advanced level subjects being taught in those prior years?

I don't know of any specific studies or statistics off the top of my head. However, take a look at something like the Little House on the Prairie series and see what sort of material was expected of the students of those little one-room schoolhouses. I'd have to dig around a little for it, but I seem to recall Laura and a classmate being expected to recite the history of the United States for some sort of exhibition. Dates, names, major events, etc. Not to mention those spelling bees. I doubt the average student would learn something like Calculus, but advanced math would probably have been available to some.

We're trying to shape our educational process more like back then than like now, I think. Lots of memorization and drill in the early years. Big emphasis on history, historic literature, and reading from original sources rather than textbooks. You learn to learn like that, and you can teach yourself anything you want to know.

1800's - to put it bluntly....our literacy rates SUCK compared to basic literacy "elementary" expectations of the 1800's, kids would either leave school at about 13 or start college. So, by the time they were 13, they were expected to read and write on a college level,and comprehend college material. They were not expected to know upper level science such as chemistry or anatomy, or upper level math such as calculus, but were expected to be able to learn it without being babied.

1950's - and 1980's I don't know much about these years as far as education specifics honestly. from what I know, there should be better reading and writing expectations in the 50's than in the 80's. I graduated hs and college in the 80's.

I think some would be surprised if they looked into it rather than listened only to what is commonly espoused to make one's preferred method sound superior.

The education system had changed as the culture, needs and expectations have changed. It's not all the fault of the educators. I think some of the animosity and negative feelings that are directed towards our schools is misdirected. Maybe society needs to put more pressure on our fellow man to be more responsible better parents. If the kids were raised better and held more accountable, I think the current education system would be much more effective.

Society and our culture is much different today than it was back when Laura Engel was running across the prairie to the one room school house.

mojo84 wrote:I think some would be surprised if they looked into it rather than listened only to what is commonly espoused to make one's preferred method sound superior.

The education system had changed as the culture, needs and expectations have changed. It's not all the fault of the educators. I think some of the animosity and negative feelings that are directed towards our schools is misdirected. Maybe society needs to put more pressure on our fellow man to be more responsible and better patents. If the kids were raised better and held more accountable, I think the current education system would be much more effective.

Society and our culture is much different today than it was back when Laura Engel was running across the prairie to the one room school house.

Well spoken. It either begins in the home, or it doesn't begin at all.

I know it's PBS but you may find this of interest. http://www.pbs.org/kcet/publicschool/ev ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Notice the section on discipline. How many of you would be ok with 19th century school discipline today? Get they didn't have menu is doing things like what has been mentioned in this thread.

Private school or bigger house
Private school or fancy newish car
Private school or steak dinners
Private school or dining out
Private school or vacation

Private school and sacrifice yourself, and your social status for your kids, that's how you do it.

Don't need big bucks, need discipline.

With God's help I will never send my four kids into the hands of the enemy.

mojo84 wrote:I think some would be surprised if they looked into it rather than listened only to what is commonly espoused to make one's preferred method sound superior.

The education system had changed as the culture, needs and expectations have changed. It's not all the fault of the educators. I think some of the animosity and negative feelings that are directed towards our schools is misdirected. Maybe society needs to put more pressure on our fellow man to be more responsible better parents. If the kids were raised better and held more accountable, I think the current education system would be much more effective.

Society and our culture is much different today than it was back when Laura Engel was running across the prairie to the one room school house.

Agreed. Like many things, you get what you put into it.

Texas_Blaze wrote:Private school or bigger house
Private school or fancy newish car
Private school or steak dinners
Private school or dining out
Private school or vacation

Private school and sacrifice yourself, and your social status for your kids, that's how you do it.

Don't need big bucks, need discipline.

With God's help I will never send my four kids into the hands of the enemy.

Interesting how some think their way is the best way for everyone. I resent the implication those that choose to send their kids to public school make poor decisions by choosing material things over their kids.

SewTexas wrote:and Dori, you threw an disagreement out there, but no solution, that's not playing fair around here, we tend to expect an decent argument, not "that's not the right way".

Sorry. I don't remember that standard being applied when people objected to Obamacare.

I think a voucher system is the wrong answer because it gives taxpayers even less voice. One of the main problems with the current system is the taxpayers don't have enough say how their money is spent on education. Therefore vouchers are a move in the wrong direction. A better move is more local control and less remote control from Austin and Washington DC. Local school boards spending local money and being accountable to local taxpayers and voters would be much better.

Another big problem is the teacher unions. People should be free to join unions if they want, but no employer should be forced to engage in collective bargaining. Employers, including schools, should be able to hire and promote based on performance rather than seniority or other union mandates. They should be able to end the employment of unsatisfactory workers. Especially in Texas.

The third big problem is parents. This was covered well by others but it's worth repeating the importance of parents who are involved in their children's education, inside and out of school.

mojo84 wrote:

Texas_Blaze wrote:Private school or bigger house
Private school or fancy newish car
Private school or steak dinners
Private school or dining out
Private school or vacation

Private school and sacrifice yourself, and your social status for your kids, that's how you do it.

Don't need big bucks, need discipline.

With God's help I will never send my four kids into the hands of the enemy.

Interesting how some think their way is the best way for everyone. I resent the implication those that choose to send their kids to public school make poor decisions by choosing material things over their kids.

i read a post earlier in the thread; takes big bucks. some folks make excuses why private school isn't possible. That's my point. If someone wants their children in public school, I could care less. Nothing about the public school system is a friend to me, ; the unions, liberal agendas, poor education, violence. It is an enemy.

Dori wrote:

SewTexas wrote:and Dori, you threw an disagreement out there, but no solution, that's not playing fair around here, we tend to expect an decent argument, not "that's not the right way".

Sorry. I don't remember that standard being applied when people objected to Obamacare.

I think a voucher system is the wrong answer because it gives taxpayers even less voice. One of the main problems with the current system is the taxpayers don't have enough say how their money is spent on education. Therefore vouchers are a move in the wrong direction. A better move is more local control and less remote control from Austin and Washington DC. Local school boards spending local money and being accountable to local taxpayers and voters would be much better.

Another big problem is the teacher unions. People should be free to join unions if they want, but no employer should be forced to engage in collective bargaining. Employers, including schools, should be able to hire and promote based on performance rather than seniority or other union mandates. They should be able to end the employment of unsatisfactory workers. Especially in Texas.

The third big problem is parents. This was covered well by others but it's worth repeating the importance of parents who are involved in their children's education, inside and out of school.

I think a voucher system gives taxpayers a screaming voice. If Mr and Mrs Smith don't like the the Government School in their neighborhood, then they should have the right to transfer their child to a better one, and take their $ with them, or to a private school, or to home. I'm not sure how that isn't a voice? Plus it gives them a rather loud voice at the school board meetings because the board will know that if they don't perform they will lose certain $.

I entirely agree with you on the unions and parents.

SewTexas wrote:I think a voucher system gives taxpayers a screaming voice. If Mr and Mrs Smith don't like the the Government School in their neighborhood, then they should have the right to transfer their child to a better one, and take their $ with them, or to a private school, or to home.

In that scenario, Mr. and Mrs. Smith would be the tax recipients not the tax payers.