So, anybody else CCW a mousegun?

[Excaliber]

I bet a bad guy would rather be sprayed than shot..

You can improve your options with both the pepper spray and the P3AT, but in your situation, I don't think getting rid of the gun is the best course of action.

I did try wearing a tuckable IWB holster briefly but found this uncomfortable as well from frequent leaning, squatting and bending over. My attempt was to find a means to both carry and be comfortable at work.

Smokewagon is undoubtedly correct that a bad guy would prefer to be sprayed rather than shot, but the BG's preferences are pretty low down on the list of things that influence my tactical decisions. My point is that if I spray him (or them) with immediate attack stopping effect and create enough of an opportunity to exit the scene before they injure me, in my book I count that as a win. The effects of the OC are really quick and several BG's can be significantly impaired at almost the same time if they're close enough together. They also won't be happy and won't enjoy the experience.

The disabling effects of small caliber projectiles often take much longer (minutes instead of seconds), and rounds have to be delivered to one BG at a time while the others remain operational. In my view "much longer" is just too long. If I shoot him a couple of times with a .380 and he charges in and stabs me a couple of times with a 4 inch folder, the BG may be less happy when he finally notices he's been shot than if I'd sprayed him, but I'm in a world of hurt too. That counts as a loss in my book.

I would not suggest that OC is always better than a .380 and it is certainly not better than a handgun in a serious defensive caliber, but if concealability and carrying comfort are the overriding concerns, it's properties and effects are worth a serious look.

OC plus a firearm (my preference) is an excellent way to go because it gives you more options at different points on the use of force continuum which is always a good thing. Just remember that when the time comes for deployment, unless the situation develops so gradually that you can use them in sequence, you'll most likely have to make a choice between them because it's tough to use both at once. Decisions, decisions......

There are several deep concealment options available for txroadcyclist's situation besides IWB carry. Offside carry under the off side arm under the shirt allows one to carry a compact pistol in a serious defensive caliber with very little risk of detection, especially if one goes with shirts that are not form fitting and made of patterned material. Three good options in this category are:

Action Holsters elastic chest rig: http://actionholsters.com/

5.11 Tactical holster shirt: http://www.511tactical.com/511-holster-shirt-40011.html

Action Direct under shirt shoulder rig: http://gunnersecurity.com/holster-shoulder.html

Any of these would allow you to easily conceal a G26 or 27, 3" 1911, Kahr PM40 or PM45, or similar sized weapon and keep it very well hidden while moving, bending, etc. Big guys can effectively conceal a full size 1911 if they want to. You could, of course, also carry a smaller caliber gun this way as well, but it wouldn't make a lot of sense to me to do so when a tactically superior option is available.

The draw stroke from these rigs is not quite as fast as IWB carry but much faster than an ankle rig. If you wear one, you need to know that the draw stroke can be relatively easily blocked by an opponent who traps the strong arm to the erstwhile defender's chest in a close in encounter (something to keep in mind for your tactical positioning). On the other hand, the draw can be executed smoothly with only moderate movement, and it doesn't leave you standing on one leg with your teeth in the BG's optimum kicking zone like an ankle rig does. Some clever folks elect to expedite access by sewing the button from the button side of the shirt closure to the buttonhole side in the area they need to reach through, and sewing velcro to the two sides of the overlap to allow easy separation without popping buttons around the room.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

[Excaliber]

Earlier Quote: "I've always smiled at the expression "friends don't let friends carry mouseguns,"

Yeah, we had a bunch of t-shirts made up years ago with that - but it was followed by "(unless they would not otherwise carry at all)".

Greybeard makes an excellent point with his follow on wording for the t-shirts. Any gun is better than no gun because it gives you an option you wouldn't otherwise have. The thing to keep in mind is that not all guns are created equal and it's really important to understand just what the tactical advantages and disadvantages are for whatever you decide to carry.

As I recall, Jeff Cooper's comments on the subject of small caliber weapons ran along the lines of the following:

(I apologize in advance for the paraphrasing. Perhaps someone can help me out with his exact words.)

Don't carry a mousegun (he didn't use that term because it wasn't in use at the time, but it serves the purpose here.)
If you carry one, don't draw it.
If you draw it, don't fire it.
Because if you do, you'll make your antagonist very angry and he will most likely proceed to kill you.

Col. Cooper wasn't known for leading folks astray on the tactical realities. He also wasn't known for mincing his words.

Here's the takeaway: While the display of small caliber weapons may sometimes work to deter a BG whose reasoning skills are not completely submerged by a chemical stew at the time, if they have to be fired in a defensive mode against a drugged or determined adversary to stop a deadly threat, I'd put my money on the outcome Jeff described.

[mr.72]

well the "don't carry a mousegun" axiom may be more meaningful if we had a working definition of a "mousegun".

like is a 3" 9mm pocketable pistol a "mousegun"? yes? then is a .40 in the same form factor a "mousegun"? yes? howabout a .45? does it matter that they all have similar ballistics?

or does "mousegun" mean .32ACP? or .380 and smaller?

I am pretty sure most bad guys are going to take note if they are hit in the center of mass with a .380, especially if they are hit multiple times in that fashion. Moreso with 9mm... fewer rounds from "mad" to "down".

I hope to never have to find out tho. I'm kind of thinking just the image of a mid-size 9mm auto is going to be a much bigger deterrent than subcompact .45.

[Xander]

well the "don't carry a mousegun" axiom may be more meaningful if we had a working definition of a "mousegun".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mousegun

Honestly, I don't like Wikipedia's definition. I think a better definition is .32 cal or less. However, the Wikipedia article should at least familiarize you with the concept and remove some of your confusion regarding sub-compact 9mm, .40 and .45 cal handguns.

[HerbM]

Ok, since there is no agreed definition of "mouse gun" I will take a chance and say:

Glock 30 in .45 10+1

...the Glock 30 carries like a dream -- no rough edges -- IWB. You can easily
tuck around it and unless you wear a translucent (esp white) shirt you're good.

If that is too "thick" then the Glock 36 in .45 (see a pattern here?) -- bought one for my
daughter and carried it a while until she came home from college to pick it up.

Just as nice or a bit nicer, although it bugged me a little to give up the extra rounds.
<grin>

As to the .380 (my wife's) which I don't carry but would if need be: Cor-Bon -- the
original ones but today I think I would get the ones with the PowRBall; just found
out about those recently, although her Colt Pony 1911 in .380 feeds hollow points
just fine.

The biggest thing people tend to overlook is "how many sharp edges" does the
darn thing have...

[Mike from Texas]

Always carry a P3AT Kel-Tec in a pocket holster. Even with my primary carry. But the Kel-Tec is always with me.

+1. There may be times when I can't conceal my Kimber or my Glock but my P3AT is always with me.