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tbryanh wrote:You need to be safe from the gun, and you need the gun to make you safe.

1. To be safe from the gun, you need to avoid accidental and negligent discharges.

2. For the gun to make you safe, it needs to fire when you pull the trigger.

Thumb safeties can be excellent when it comes to 1, but they can cause problems when it comes to 2.

If you ever need to fire your weapon in self defence, chances are your going to be nervous and jittery with an overdose of adrenalin pumping through your system. You might pull the trigger without taking the safety off first, and when the gun doesn't fire, your mind might freeze up for a split second making you unable to figure out what the problem is in time to protect yourself.

This might sound far fetched, but its not. While I have not been in any gunfights, I have driven a car for many decades. On a few occasions when I tried to stop the car, I hit the gas pedal instead of the brake. I knew there was a problem, but I didn't know what the cause of the problem was. My foot was stuck to the gas pedal, and my mind froze up for a split second. Luckily my mind snapped out of it in time to move my foot to the brake and stop the car. Similar things can happen when deploying guns that have thumb safeties.

If the gun doesn't fire when you pull the trigger, the gun is not a safe gun.

Excaliber wrote:

Jumping Frog wrote:

Excaliber wrote:Never again - no nylon holsters for this kid.

My only use for a nylon holster is serving as a glovebox holster. I keep it in the glovebox. If I need to go inside someone disarmed, I'll draw from my IWB and put it in the glovebox holster.

That makes sense and is a good use for a nylon holster. It keeps the gun from getting scratched up while banging around in the glovebox.

Soccerdad1995 wrote:To use my gun, I need to draw it from the holster, keep my finger off the trigger, take up my sight picture, put my finger on the trigger, and pull the trigger. If it has a safety, I also need to ensure that my method of drawing the gun and taking a grip deactivates that safety. I want to make sure that I can do all of these things naturally, and without thinking, while I am in a high stress situation. So I practice. Ad nauseum. I am confident that when I take my grip during the draw, my thumb will come down and apply pressure to the top of the safety before coming to rest on top of the safety lever. The reason I am confident is because that is exactly where it goes every single time I draw my gun. And every single time I take a firing grip at the range even if I am not practicing my draw, even if I am using a gun that does not have a thumb safety.

I would no sooner "forget" to deactivate the safety than I would "forget" to take the gun out of the holster, or to acquire a sight picture, or even to pull the trigger. There is actually a greater chance of forgetting to do any of those other things because they are things that I actively do as opposed to my thumb position which is a natural result of gripping the gun in my hand.

Liberty wrote: The fly in the ointment with a plan such as this is that Some safeties snick up to go off, and some down to go off. My 3 carry guns all work the same way snick up to fire. This is the main reason I will not own a 1911. If someone uses and trains with a 1911, and decides to carry a Beretta, any immediate call to use the available handgun could be a disaster.

tbryanh wrote:You need to be safe from the gun, and you need the gun to make you safe.

1. To be safe from the gun, you need to avoid accidental and negligent discharges.

2. For the gun to make you safe, it needs to fire when you pull the trigger.

Thumb safeties can be excellent when it comes to 1, but they can cause problems when it comes to 2.

If you ever need to fire your weapon in self defence, chances are your going to be nervous and jittery with an overdose of adrenalin pumping through your system. You might pull the trigger without taking the safety off first, and when the gun doesn't fire, your mind might freeze up for a split second making you unable to figure out what the problem is in time to protect yourself.

This might sound far fetched, but its not. While I have not been in any gunfights, I have driven a car for many decades. On a few occasions when I tried to stop the car, I hit the gas pedal instead of the brake. I knew there was a problem, but I didn't know what the cause of the problem was. My foot was stuck to the gas pedal, and my mind froze up for a split second. Luckily my mind snapped out of it in time to move my foot to the brake and stop the car. Similar things can happen when deploying guns that have thumb safeties.

If the gun doesn't fire when you pull the trigger, the gun is not a safe gun.

treadlightly wrote:

Liberty wrote: The fly in the ointment with a plan such as this is that Some safeties snick up to go off, and some down to go off. My 3 carry guns all work the same way snick up to fire. This is the main reason I will not own a 1911. If someone uses and trains with a 1911, and decides to carry a Beretta, any immediate call to use the available handgun could be a disaster.

This, actually, is an anti-safety argument I can understand. Up-to-fire, to me, would be a problem. If it's natural for a shooter, that's a fine thing. It's not for me.

I grip a 1911 with my thumb on top of the safety and it never moves from there. It's not an extra step to select "fire", it's an extra step to leave it in (cough) "safe" until the muzzle is downrange of my weak hand. That's the step I practice, the phase of the draw where I consciously don't take the gun off safe.

Taking the gun off safety is very natural to me, as long as it's down-to-fire and a nice comfortable thumb rest.

Up-to-fire, to my spinal cord, sounds like extra motion. When the hand is increasing its grip on the gun the thumb naturally wants to come down.

I get this anti-safety argument and I never figured I'd say that. I'm wired for down-to-fire with a method that requires no thumb choreography. Up-to-fire, or a slide mounted safety lever I couldn't ride all the time - not consistent with my wiring. I wouldn't carry a gun built that way because I'm not built, muscle memory-wise, in a compatible manner.

C-dub wrote: ... when I have to disarm I just remove the entire holster with the gun in it and put it in the center console. I rarely take the gun out of the holster when not at a range or at home.

mloamiller wrote:

C-dub wrote: ... when I have to disarm I just remove the entire holster with the gun in it and put it in the center console. I rarely take the gun out of the holster when not at a range or at home.

This is why I use a paddle holster, rather than one that attaches directly to the belt. The paddle holster prevents the scenario in the OP.

C-dub wrote:

mloamiller wrote:

C-dub wrote: ... when I have to disarm I just remove the entire holster with the gun in it and put it in the center console. I rarely take the gun out of the holster when not at a range or at home.

This is why I use a paddle holster, rather than one that attaches directly to the belt. The paddle holster prevents the scenario in the OP.

Due to switching holsters last year to a Safariland 7TS 7377, I discovered that I did not like the cant of the 7378 holster I wanted. Ordering the 7378 also get's one the belt slide option. I changed to that, a 7377, which has the more straight up draw angle I like better. Although I don't use a paddle holster any longer, if I must disarm before going inside or before going to bed, I still remove the entire holster from my belt. I've found that it isn't all that much more difficult.

Liberty wrote:

treadlightly wrote:

Liberty wrote: The fly in the ointment with a plan such as this is that Some safeties snick up to go off, and some down to go off. My 3 carry guns all work the same way snick up to fire. This is the main reason I will not own a 1911. If someone uses and trains with a 1911, and decides to carry a Beretta, any immediate call to use the available handgun could be a disaster.

This, actually, is an anti-safety argument I can understand. Up-to-fire, to me, would be a problem. If it's natural for a shooter, that's a fine thing. It's not for me.

I grip a 1911 with my thumb on top of the safety and it never moves from there. It's not an extra step to select "fire", it's an extra step to leave it in (cough) "safe" until the muzzle is downrange of my weak hand. That's the step I practice, the phase of the draw where I consciously don't take the gun off safe.

Taking the gun off safety is very natural to me, as long as it's down-to-fire and a nice comfortable thumb rest.

Up-to-fire, to my spinal cord, sounds like extra motion. When the hand is increasing its grip on the gun the thumb naturally wants to come down.

I get this anti-safety argument and I never figured I'd say that. I'm wired for down-to-fire with a method that requires no thumb choreography. Up-to-fire, or a slide mounted safety lever I couldn't ride all the time - not consistent with my wiring. I wouldn't carry a gun built that way because I'm not built, muscle memory-wise, in a compatible manner.

I don't think either way is more natural. It is all on what we are used to and have trained for. My guns have the safety on the slide. higher up than on a 1911 or similar safeties. Snicking it up with my thumb has become very natural and automatic on the draw, done before even clearing leather. I don't think that slide mounted or body mounted is the naturally better way, It's all on what you are used to and what you train for.

The only thing that really bothers be though is that my prefered style of gun is becoming obsolete. That of the DA/SA hammer fired handgun with slide mounted safety has lost favor, to striker fired junk. and 1911 jewelboxes.