Republican Governors debate

[RPB]

Very good points.
Especially the one about renters.

The ONLY people not paying property tax now are the homeless and children who live with parents, whose parents pay it. Some people who are fortunate enough to own interests in more than one property, pay property tax on each.
Also good point about mineral interest owners paying LOCAL property taxes/school taxes etc. on oil in the ground etc. and severance taxes when it's removed from the ground and a production tax for producing it, as well as a State sales tax and later a federal income tax on it.

[/b][/color]

I wouldn't say those are the ONLY ones. I am thinking of those who live in gvt subsidized housing in virtually every town. Keep in mind that they don't have to pay tax on groceries or meds anyway so it's not going to be in the necessities they would be hit with tax. Not wanting to burden the truly poor, but this might tax those who live at tax payers expense, but seem to have enough money to buy more frivolous things.

RED HERRING ALERT !!!
They don't pay taxes on Groceries or meds? says whom? You can't confuse multiple Govt programs. Perhaps they pay part D premiums for meds, along with the copays and taxes on the meds. You can not assume that because someone lives in HUD/Section 8/Subsidized housing (and they DO pay rent on a sliding scale, hence "subsidized"therefore a portion of property taxes that they can afford) .... You can not assume that just because they live in subsidized housing that they also qualify or obtain food or medical subsidies.... Many may even qualify that choose NOT to apply for other programs. These are just red herrings on other Gov't programs in the Sales Tax vs. Property tax discussion.

I personally qualify for a heck of a lot, but by the grace of God, I'm able to pay my own way so far, and the way of others, to the extent that I can, without any Gov't help... I pay and have paid them a heck of a lot more than they'll ever pay me. When my dad was ill, he qualified for some Gov't home modification accessiblity money, he applied, but rather than wait 14 months to get in the bathroom, I paid for the home modifications. He got approved for the money 2 months after he passed away, at which time it was no longer needed nor does a deceased qualify, nor anyone who actually paid qualify for reimbursement, nor would I have accepted it. After he passed, the Gov't wanted to file a claim against his estate to make me sell our house and leave me homeless, so they could recover some money they actually did spend over his lifetime, (a couple thousand, out of the thousands and thousands he paid before retiring after working his entire life) We paid our property taxes, taxes on groceries, meds premiums for insurance, and everything. Anyway, point is, don't try to insert people receiving temporay aid from Govt programs, when those people may have previously paid more than their share, into a discussion on Property tax vs Sales tax.

[wgoforth]

Very good points.
Especially the one about renters.

The ONLY people not paying property tax now are the homeless and children who live with parents, whose parents pay it. Some people who are fortunate enough to own interests in more than one property, pay property tax on each.
Also good point about mineral interest owners paying LOCAL property taxes/school taxes etc. on oil in the ground etc. and severance taxes when it's removed from the ground and a production tax for producing it, as well as a State sales tax and later a federal income tax on it.

[/b][/color]

I wouldn't say those are the ONLY ones. I am thinking of those who live in gvt subsidized housing in virtually every town. Keep in mind that they don't have to pay tax on groceries or meds anyway so it's not going to be in the necessities they would be hit with tax. Not wanting to burden the truly poor, but this might tax those who live at tax payers expense, but seem to have enough money to buy more frivolous things.

RED HERRING ALERT !!!
They don't pay taxes on Groceries or meds? says whom? You can't confuse multiple Govt programs. Perhaps they pay part D premiums for meds, along with the copays and taxes on the meds. You can not assume that because someone lives in HUD/Section 8/Subsidized housing (and they DO pay rent on a sliding scale, hence "subsidized"therefore a portion of property taxes that they can afford) .... You can not assume that just because they live in subsidized housing that they also qualify or obtain food or medical subsidies.... Many may even qualify that choose NOT to apply for other programs. These are just red herrings on other Gov't programs in the Sales Tax vs. Property tax discussion.

I personally qualify for a heck of a lot, but by the grace of God, I'm able to pay my own way so far, and the way of others, to the extent that I can. When my dad was ill, he qualified for some Gov't home accessiblity money, he applied, but rather than wait 14 months to get in the bathroom. I paid for the home modifications, He got approved for the money 2 months after he passed away, at which time it was no longer needed, nor accepted. After he passed, the Gov't wanted to file a claim against his estate to make me sell our house and leave me homeless, so they could recover some money they actually did spend over his lifetime, (a couple thousand, out of the thousands and thousands he paid before retiring after working his entire life) We paid our property taxes, taxes on groceries, meds premiums for insurance, and everything. Anyway, point is, don't try to insert people receiving temporay aid from Govt programs, when those people may have previously paid more than their share, into a discussion on Property tax vs Sales tax.

I believe there is confusion here... in Texas there is not a sales tax on groceries or medications, unless the groceries are deemed "convenience foods." That aspect has nothing to do with being on a gvt program. That's for everyone. I was pointing out that an increase in sales tax would not hurt the poor on basic neccesities as those are already not taxed.

[RPB]

ok, then if neither rich, poor, property owners nor homeless pay a tax on food nor meds, it really doesn't matter in a discussion on propery tax vs sales tax anyway ... I see your point that it doesn't matter, as dog licensing and registration costs doesn't matter, and etc. not sure why the comment was originally made though, other than it has no effect on them.

A Deacon in my church is a retired Post Office employee, now disabled, who lives in subsidized Gov't housing but pays for his food and meds himself, along with the insurance, for which he may pay premiums, or might be through retirement, I dunno,.... he pays his utilities, and associated taxes on those too, ...he pays rent, but subsidized, so he pays what he can in Property taxes through rent still, ...I occaisionally loan him money for a prescription when he doesn't have enough.

He also pays sales taxes on necessities like utilities, clothing, gasoline, etc etc etc. Sometimes I loan him gasoline money so he can get to and from a doctor in Austin 65 miles away that his insurer/postal worker program requires him to see, he pays sales tax the same as the rest of us, just a higher rate of sales tax to income.

Increasing sales tax would increase his burden more percentage wise to his income, compared to Donald Trump's, but increasing a property tax, which everyone can afford a small percent increase based upon the value of what they actually own, or rent is a fair increase because it is based upon what people can actually afford. Donald Trump could afford to pay taxes on his properties, A person in subsidized housing pays rent too, thereby at least a portion of their income.

Here's the deal:
A dollar a gallon increase in Gasoline sales tax wouldn't cause Donald Trump to blink or trade in his car for a Toyota, but my freind could no longer afford to see his doctor.

If we need x# dollars in tax revenue to provide fire protection for properties, who derives the most benefit from that? The guy with the most properties.... why shift his burden to the poor who already pays a higher percentage of his income in sales taxes, compared to Donald?

[srothstein]

You just said you pay rent, so you pay property taxes by paying the property owner who pays them an amount of rent he amortized and portioned out to tenants to cover that expense, so that covers your portion; nope, you're not homeless.

And this is one of my biggest complaints with the proposals to do away with the property tax. I live in an apartment and do not pay this tax directly, but it can be argued that I pay it indirectly as you said. But if the tax is done away with, there is a very good probability that my rent would not change. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that any corporation that rents homes out (either apartments or houses) would lower the rent just because one of the bills went away. Paying the sales tax that would replace it would only up my tax bill with no corresponding decrease.

As a further argument against this concept (much as I would love to do away with the property tax), I will point out Ms. Hutchison's question to Ms. Medina during the debate. The tax system was revised for businesses and it was directly supposed to lower everyone's property tax. IIRC, it was supposed to go down by 1/3. Neither Ms. Medina nor I know of anyone who has seen a property tax reduction.

If we want to fix taxes in Texas, we need to review the whole tax structure. We cannot do it by looking at the taxes individually. We need to consider what the overall tax burden for a person is and how to best raise that money. Junk ALL of the current systems and then pick one system that could generate the same amount of money. Anything else just sets us up for more abuse.