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My primary carry guns are both Commander length Ed Brown 1911s. Mine seem to work best with 230g Remington Golden Sabres.

AndyC wrote:

blackopstx wrote:you want knockdown power

That told me all I need to know right there.

LOL...

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=erYyDOFai1I[/youtube]

Well I have found this back and forth a little funny. I have been watching this the last few days and after looking at the website I would want to see actual footage of ballistic gelatin tests! Most frag. rounds don't even penetrate 6inch regardless of caliber an these guys have some going over 12inch. I also read that testimonial thing. What a bunch of poop. Anybody who has shot an animal or God forbid a human knows they don't just flip in the air. File this under all the other frag. rounds. Could it take the fight out of someone? Sure it could but I won’t bet my life on it. This is in the same realm as bird shot or light for caliber hollowpoints. Once again go heavy or go home.

Edit: FBI recommends 12in but as far as I am concerned I wouldn't carry anything that penetrates less then 10in. Some of the best hollow points on the market can't do that and expand in smaller center fire handgun calibers. That's why I ditched my .380 as a backup and got a .38. Penetration and a greater sectional density is a good thing as long as the hollow point can still open, The more the merrier.

AndyC wrote:

blackopstx wrote:you want knockdown power

That told me all I need to know right there.

LoL. I didn't want to get into the physics of "knockdown power"... in handguns, or for hunting. I think your right though.. this statement pretty well explains things.

RBCD Performance Plus 40 S&W 77 gr. TFSP
shot at 30' into 10"x10"x16" 10% Calibrated Gelatin through 4 layers of ballistic nylon.
Entrance through left end. No exit.



RBCD Performance Plus 45 ACP 115 gr. TFSP
Shot at 30' into 8"x8"x16" 10% Calibrated Gelatin through 4 sheets ballistic nylon.
Entrance through left end, no exit!

Here's the skinny. No such thing as 'stopping power or knockdown power' when it comes to a bullet. And, depending on what school of theory you come from, there are different ideas on energy transfer, etc.

Bottom line, there are only 4 ways you will get someone to stop the aggression by shooting them: psychological (they give up when they are shot), physical incapacitation - (the bullet does damage to the portion of the body where they can no longer be the aggressor, like broken pelvis and can't walk or shot in arm and can't shoot), loss of blood (so much blood is lost that they pass out or die), or neurological (bullet strikes a portion of the central nervous system and it shuts down). Central nervous system hit is about the only immediate stop. Anything else may take a substantial time to occur and your attacker may be able to continue the aggression.

When it boils down to what is the best method to get one of these things accomplished, it becomes a combination of proper penetration and damage to the body.

Lightweight fragmentation (frangible) rounds (aka RBCD and Glaser, etc.) have been shown to NOT be conducive to proper penetration even though if they do penetrate they have the capability to spread out and maybe cut veins or vessels. They will not normally be able to go deep enough to hit vital organs and cause heavy hemorrhaging and/or punch a large enough hole for massive blood loss. Additionally, because of their inability to properly penetrate, heavy clothing like denim can actually keep the round from doing any damage. And the 'selling point' on low recoil is just due to a lighter projectile.

Heavier slower bullets have an advantage of continuing their trajectory for penetration without being deflected by clothing or bone. They also punch a nice sized hole to help alleviate the BG of his blood supply. However, they come with the downside of possible over penetration and being heavier to carry than a smaller caliber round.

So, sales hype aside, and trowing out the psychological abandonment of a bullet strike, it comes down to proper penetration, shot placement and a major dose of luck in stopping a person with a shot. If you are using the frag rounds, and they happen to hit in a soft tissue area with nothing to slow them down, then you may get lucky with the fragmentation and penetrate enough to hit an organ or hit the central nervous system. If you use a heavier bullet, then you may only poke one hole, but the penetration through clothing or through bone in the thoracic cavity should allow you to get to a vital organ (hopefully) and make a big outlet for blood.

For my use, I try to find a happy medium for my use and use something that will properly penetrate through clothing and bone, make a large drain hole and get into the vital organs to stop my attacker. Having personally seen what a 158 grain .357 hollow point, 12 gauge 00 buck and rifled slugs do to the human body from a shock and bleed-out standpoint, I will take the slow heavy round over the light fast round to make sure I get my penetration.

So how far is that supposed to penetrate in the gel block? Because just looking at the box of truth test in water there is no way any of these rounds are going to penetrate anymore then 8inch in gel at the farthest point. For comparison here is a 10mm load I shoot but don't carry DT 135grain Nosler JHP runs 1670 average over my 6in barrel. But here it is from a factory barrel. http://www.shootingillustrated.com/inde ... osler-jhp/

Also here is Glaser in .45acp http://www.shootingillustrated.com/inde ... fety-slug/

There site says 11-12 inch of penetration for those two loads you showed us. I don't see that happening in gel. Water maybe but not gel.

Not unless they are uranium depleted rounds!

I am sorry but I just won't drink the Kool-aid.

Also, I am limited to hunting in white tail, mule deer and pigs. If someone can explain to me why I would want to use a frag round that leaves a lot of small pieces in all that meat when I harvest it? Won't that just tear up all that yummy venison and be a pain to get it all out?

FAAPOD wrote:My primary carry guns are both Commander length Ed Brown 1911s. Mine seem to work best with 230g Remington Golden Sabres.

NICE! I'm excited about getting my Ed Brown! Hell of a nice 1911



Top rounds from this post.....

Golden Sabers
Win. Ranger +p+
Win. PDX1
Hornady Critical Defense
Speer Gold Dot p+
Federal HS
Buffalo Bore
Corbon DPX

Anyone out there used most of these or all and can give ma a break down of which one(s) they like the best and why? From my recent digging around im leaning towards the Win Ranger and the Hornady CD. If I stack load it with RBCD.

Or, Maybe we should run a poll... om not sure of how to set on up on this forum.

Remember, "on the internet, everybody is an expert."

Don't forget that RBCD stuff, just in case.

what about BARNES BULLETS TAC-XP? Anyone used or heard about this stuff looks pretty impressive never messed with it myself....and no I don't sell Barnes either.

I was going to ask you if those RBCD rounds might be low grain copper rounds because of the penetration claims. But yes Barnes bullets are great for many things. The two most common purposes for handguns are short barrel handguns or high velocity hollowpoints. The stay together every time and expand as good as any hollowpoint, including the gold dot. Only down side is the bullet is long per grain compared to lead so you can't pack as much powder in the cartridge. This is why they usually run slower fps then a conventional jhp of the same grain. Oh yeah and they cost a ton! Copper isn't cheap!

If you want a bullet that penetrates, expands at pretty much all barrel lengths and does not fragment the Barnes bullet is the way to go, if you can afford it! But for most service caliber firearms with a 4in barrel or better it is really not needed.