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Lying to police officers
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:54 pm
by seamusTX
A while back, I stated unequivocally that it was a crime to lie to a police officer when he is acting in an official capacity.
I had a conversation at the forum day with a member that convinced me otherwise. He wishes to remain anonymous.
My current position is:
- It is a crime to fail to identify yourself when asked, or to give a false identity.
- It is a crime to lie about a material fact in a criminal investigation.
These conclusions are based on the following sections of the penal code:
§ 37.08. FALSE REPORT TO PEACE OFFICER OR LAW ENFORCEMENT EMPLOYEE. (a) A person commits an offense if, with intent to deceive, he knowingly makes a false statement that is material to a criminal investigation and makes the statement to:
(1) a peace officer conducting the investigation; or
(2) any employee of a law enforcement agency that is authorized by the agency to conduct the investigation and that the actor knows is conducting the investigation.
§ 38.02. FAILURE TO IDENTIFY. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.
(b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has:
(1) lawfully arrested the person;
(2) lawfully detained the person; or
(3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense.
The earlier forum discussion was mainly about what a non-CHL holder should do if a police officer asks if he has a weapon in the car. The gentleman I was talking with made what I think is an excellent suggestion:
If the officer asks if you have a weapon, say "I have nothing illegal in this car."
Of course, the officer may persist in his questioning, and you have to decide what to do.
- Jim
Re: Lying to police officers
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:13 pm
by carlson1
seamusTX wrote:
My current position is:
- It is a crime to fail to identify yourself when asked, or to give a false identity.
- It is a crime to lie about a material fact in a criminal investigation.
Yes and Yes.
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 1:16 pm
by nitrogen
very good point. If the "I have nothing illegal in this car" doesn't deflect the question you're in trouble, because you're backed into a corner with an ignorant officer. I'd probably answer, "Officer, I don't have any weapons on me." I'd offer to get out of the car and let him "Terry" me, but make it clear that I don't consent to any searches of the car, by locking it after I exit.
This will probably happen until an officer arrests someone under the new law, and gets a court judgement. Though, hopefully most officers will be aware of the new law.
Your best bet is to be respectful, yet firm, I guess.
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:02 pm
by mcub
While my experience with LEO's is limited, it’s my experience that they get really ticked off when lied to.
You run the risk of getting arrested for something they might other wise over look, just because they are insulted.
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:00 pm
by CHL/LEO
"I have nothing illegal in this car."
I would strongly advise you not to play these type games with LEOs who ask you a straight forward question. Just answer their questions. 99% of the officers that I work with would take your response as, "yes I have a gun in the car" whether you actually did or not.
You have every right to make that statement if you want to, but just be aware of what the consequences are going to be. My response would be, "I'm glad to hear that but you didn't answer my question."
Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:45 pm
by frankie_the_yankee
CHL/LEO wrote:"I have nothing illegal in this car."
I would strongly advise you not to play these type games with LEOs who ask you a straight forward question. Just answer their questions. 99% of the officers that I work with would take your response as, "yes I have a gun in the car" whether you actually did or not.
You have every right to make that statement if you want to, but just be aware of what the consequences are going to be. My response would be, "I'm glad to hear that but you didn't answer my question."
+1
My thoughts exactly when I read it.
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:43 am
by KBCraig
CHL/LEO wrote:"I have nothing illegal in this car."
I would strongly advise you not to play these type games with LEOs who ask you a straight forward question. Just answer their questions.
Why is it "playing games" to guard one's rights? Would you prefer that stopped motorists, instead of saying "I don't have anything illegal", say "No" when asked if they have any guns in the car? Would you feel better if they lie?
How about if they just don't answer? Do you think they're obliged to answer any queries beyond license and proof of insurance? Do you infer guilt of... "something" if they choose to not engage in conversation?
CHL/LEO, I think you're an upstanding Texas Peace Officer, and a pretty straight shooter based on what you've posted here on the forum. But the tone of your reply suggests that you need a gentle reminder: what is inside a motorist's car is
none of your business unless you have either
probable cause or
articulable suspicion based on your experience that crime is afoot.
We all have a strong personal interest in making it home safely at the end of the day. Your interest doesn't outweigh mine.
Kevin
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:00 am
by CHL/LEO
Why is it "playing games" to guard one's rights?
I wasn't referring to one's rights - I was referring to lying or being evasive. I respect your rights and want to make sure that they're protected.
...what is inside a motorist's car is none of your business unless you have either probable cause or articulable suspicion based on your experience that crime is afoot.
I wouldn't be asking that question unless I had PC or Reasonable Suspicion.
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:34 am
by mcub
I still say it is a mistake to get into a legal argument on the side of the road, if you’re afraid of the answer just decline to make a statement.
Re: Lying to police officers
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:56 am
by Renegade
carlson1 wrote:seamusTX wrote:
My current position is:
- It is a crime to fail to identify yourself when asked...
Yes and Yes.
NO.
In Texas you are not required to identify yourself, unless arrested. And you are also NOT required to show Physical ID ever, unless driving, CHL, hunting or some other licensed activity.
Re: Lying to police officers
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:02 am
by mcub
Renegade wrote:
NO.
In Texas you are not required to identify yourself, unless arrested. And you are also NOT required to show Physical ID ever, unless driving, CHL, hunting or some other licensed activity.
IF you are detained, or if they believe you are a witness or have information about a crime you are required to ID your self.
Re: Lying to police officers
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:29 am
by carlson1
mcub wrote:Renegade wrote:
NO.
In Texas you are not required to identify yourself, unless arrested. And you are also NOT required to show Physical ID ever, unless driving, CHL, hunting or some other licensed activity.
IF you are detained, or if they believe you are a witness or have information about a crime you are required to ID your self.
Enough said. Thanks Mcub you are correct. You must give your name!
Re: Lying to police officers
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:40 am
by Renegade
mcub wrote:Renegade wrote:
NO.
In Texas you are not required to identify yourself, unless arrested. And you are also NOT required to show Physical ID ever, unless driving, CHL, hunting or some other licensed activity.
IF you are detained, or if they believe you are a witness or have information about a crime you are required to ID your self.
§ 38.02. FAILURE TO IDENTIFY. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information.
OK, so under (A) it is only an offense if you "intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth" when lawfully arrested. So if you are not lawfully arrested, you do NOT have to give that info.
(b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has:
(1) lawfully arrested the person;
(2) lawfully detained the person; or
(3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense.
OK, so under (B) it is only an offense if you "intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth" when lawfully arrested or detained. Providing NOTHING, is not an offense.
Re: Lying to police officers
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:50 am
by Renegade
carlson1 wrote:
Enough said. Thanks Mcub you are correct. You must give your name!
No he is not, but if that is what you want to believe, I am OK with it.
Re: Lying to police officers
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:17 am
by carlson1
Renegade wrote:carlson1 wrote:
Enough said. Thanks Mcub you are correct. You must give your name!
No he is not, but if that is what you want to believe, I am OK with it.
Ok I can take the correction - If the Peace Officer has Probable Cause then you have identify yourself. I was under the impression of a traffic stop, suspicious person call, etc. . .