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Safety Rules, are we feeding the Anti's?????

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:09 pm
by flintknapper
Are we feeding the Anti’s?


I believe in some ways we are.

One way we do this (IMO), is when we take perfectly good gun handling rules and take them “Too Far�!

I am sure some of you are already grumbling “Gun safety can never be taken too far�.

I disagree…and would like to present a few examples and contradictions being repeated over and over by many that have interests in firearms.

Before we begin this discussion let me state right up front: I am NOT lax concerning gun safety, but I do have a concern that when certain “rules� are taken out of context and repeated among ourselves, we create what appears to support the Anti’s position.

That position…BTW, is simply: Guns are ALWAYS dangerous, Guns cannot be made safe, and we shouldn’t trust anyone with a gun.

My concern lies primarily with “Rule One� and “Rule Two� of the four basic safety rules put forth by Jeff Cooper many years ago. The real meaning of these rules and their purpose has been completely lost in some circles, and now comes back to haunt us, I believe.

Let’s take a look at “Rule One� first. “All guns are always loaded�

The proper meaning of this rule IMO,: All guns are always loaded. ALWAYS!

What this rule means is simply this: You treat every gun as if it's loaded, until you have checked it yourself, and verified what condition it is in. Assume every gun is loaded when you first come in contact with it. Whether it's yours or mine, or anyone else's, doesn't matter. It's loaded until you've checked it yourself. Don't rely on anyone's word; check it yourself.

Understand that when a gun is in your hand, you are responsible for it. If you do something stupid and hurt someone with it, you will be held responsible.

ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED! Every time you pick up your gun, even if it's only been a few minutes since you had it, check it again.
_____________________________________________________________

Now, what I believe is a poor example from a very popular site:

“All guns are always loaded� means you must always treat your firearm with the respect you would give a loaded weapon. When you follow this rule, even after you have just checked to see that your gun is unloaded, you still never do anything with it that you would not do with a loaded gun.

This is the cardinal rule, and all other safety rules follow naturally from it.

Some people apparently believe that merely checking to see if the gun is unloaded means you can then treat it like a toy…that you can point at your friends to pose for a picture, or at your training partners for disarming practice, or at a flimsy interior wall to check trigger function

That’s a foolish, foolish idea that kills a certain number of people each year.

The quote directly above is the type of thing that “dumbs down� the responsibility/capability of the gun handler to ensure the weapon is truly unloaded.

If a firearm is indeed unloaded (as verified by you) then it is in fact completely harmless.

If a person cannot do something as simple as checking a weapon to determine its status, then I submit that person is unfit to handle it. This is where I believe our focus should be.

Some problems I have with the rule above:
“All guns are always loaded� means you must always treat your firearm with the respect you would give a loaded weapon. When you follow this rule, even after you have just checked to see that your gun is unloaded, you still never do anything with it that you would not do with a loaded gun.
Well, let’s see now…….

1. I would never attempt to clean a loaded gun, but I do regularly clean an unloaded one.

2. I don’t point my loaded gun at the middle of the bed and fire it, but do sometimes “dry fire� my unloaded pistol.

3. I don’t practice a “house clearing� or “pie-ing a room� or drawing from my holster, or malfunction clearances, etc…with a loaded gun, but I do it with my unloaded weapon.

This unnecessary restriction is put in place why? Because the supposition that a weapon can never really be declared “unloaded/safe�. This plays directly into the hands of the Anti’s.

Some people apparently believe that merely checking to see if the gun is unloaded means you can then treat it like a toy…that you can point at your friends to pose for a picture, or at your training partners for disarming practice, or at a flimsy interior wall to check trigger function
There is no excuse for “horseplay� as concerns the use of a firearm. I believe in building and maintaining good habits and a mindset that promotes reasonable safety habits. I also believe an unloaded weapon can safely be used in many exercises that build certain desirable skills.

That’s a foolish, foolish idea that kills a certain number of people each year.
NO! What kills “a certain number of people each year� is a LOADED gun and an incompetent gun handler…period!

Please give me your thoughts, and we’ll discuss them.

Rule # 2 may end up creeping into this discussion but it’s really a separate issue requiring another thread.

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:14 pm
by seamusTX
I've always though that "all guns are loaded" is simplistic, for the reason you state.

The flip side it, if all guns are always loaded, then I don't have to bother checking the chamber or magazine before I go hunting. :???:

I don't think this discussion has any meaning to the antis. Their principle is "all guns are evil." Some are opposed even to toy guns.

- Jim

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:44 pm
by flintknapper
seamusTX wrote:I've always though that "all guns are loaded" is simplistic, for the reason you state.

The flip side it, if all guns are always loaded, then I don't have to bother checking the chamber or magazine before I go hunting. :???:

I don't think this discussion has any meaning to the antis. Their principle is "all guns are evil." Some are opposed even to toy guns.
- Jim
I have found there to be two distinct types of "Anti's".

There are those who are "rabidly" anti-gun...who will not consider any position that opposes theirs.

Then, there are the "uninformed" anti's that are reasonable people but have only looked at gun ownership from one position, they will at least examine and participate in discussions. Some of these are even "fence sitters".

So, I believe everything we say...and the way we conduct ourselves is very important and observed by many.

Just my .0002

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:22 pm
by seamusTX
flintknapper wrote:So, I believe everything we say...and the way we conduct ourselves is very important and observed by many.
I agree that we should be diplomatic or whatever you want to call it. I cringe when I read things that are downright hateful and sometimes suggest illegal actions (not in this forum).

However, I don't see antis trying to make use of that. I don't think they read forums like this one. In fact, I did a Google search to see if any other web sites link here. Very few do, and those are mainly places like The Firing Line.

- Jim

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:43 pm
by anygunanywhere
seamusTX wrote:
flintknapper wrote:So, I believe everything we say...and the way we conduct ourselves is very important and observed by many.
I agree that we should be diplomatic or whatever you want to call it. I cringe when I read things that are downright hateful and sometimes suggest illegal actions (not in this forum).
The antis use pretty much anything at their disposal and they never allow facts to get intheir way. Essentially none of their arguments are based on facts - almost all of it on emotions.

They pretty much lump all pro2a folks in with the criminals who use firearms.

I do agree that when an incident with a firearm occurs no matter what the cause it does us no favor.

Great thread.

Anygun

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:46 pm
by frankie_the_yankee
Flint,

I fully agree with the basic philosophy you are putting forth here. It brings to mind Rule 4 in the NRA's list of 10 rules of gun safety.

"Always keep a gun unloaded until you are ready to use it."

When teaching an NRA Basic Pistol or Personal Protection course, people seeing this rule invariably ask, "But what about cops, or anyone who carries a gun for hunting or for self defense?"

What I do then is to explain that when you are carrying a gun you are "using" it. You're just not shooting it. Same thing when you place a loaded gun beside your bed at night. You are "using" it for personal protection if needed.

That's what I tell them anyway. But it sounds like a somewhat tortured interpretation of the rule even to me. It's just the only thing that makes sense.

At any rate, I agree that in some cases the rules are taken past the point of common sense. But I don't knnow that it plays into the hands of the antis though. I doubt if many of them are even remotely aware of the basic safety rules that we live by. In spite of their ceaseless protestations, I do not believe that they are at all interested in gun safety.

Their idea of gun safety is not to encourage safe gun handling practice. In their world, the only "safe" gun is one that is not there because they have banned it.

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:47 pm
by flintknapper
anygunanywhere wrote:
seamusTX wrote:
flintknapper wrote:So, I believe everything we say...and the way we conduct ourselves is very important and observed by many.
I agree that we should be diplomatic or whatever you want to call it. I cringe when I read things that are downright hateful and sometimes suggest illegal actions (not in this forum).
The antis use pretty much anything at their disposal and they never allow facts to get intheir way. Essentially none of their arguments are based on facts - almost all of it on emotions.
They pretty much lump all pro2a folks in with the criminals who use firearms.

I do agree that when an incident with a firearm occurs no matter what the cause it does us no favor.

Great thread.

Anygun
True, but it doesn't end with them. Even some gun owners accept these over the top rules... then promote other rules (safe guards) just in case the first two rules are violated. This just does not make sense to me.

If a situation calls for an "unloaded" gun, then make darn sure that it is. If the gun is truly unloaded then it is not a threat to anyone or anything. A firearm without a cartridge in the chamber has the same chance of "going off" as the pipe wrench I posted. NONE!

We shouldn't need rule #2 (never point the muzzle at anything you don't wish to destroy) to fall back on because we can't follow rule #1.

Then, we have rule #3 (keep your finger off the trigger) just in case we have sailed past rules 1 & 2 because of our incompetence!

No wonder the Anti's don't trust anyone with a gun. We have by default, conceded that we are inept when we create rule upon rule as redundancies to prevent poor gun handling.

Around my place, if you fail to practice rule #1 (where applicable), you will never get a chance to fail at #2,#3,#4. It is clear to me that you can not follow simple instructions or just choose not to and you'll be sent packing. When we hold people to that standard, then we will see reasonable (real world) rules return.

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:09 pm
by flintknapper
Interesting read.

I found this article just now while searching for relevant "quotes" regarding "rule 2" (another one I have some problems with).

This is a short commentary by Gabriel Suarez (most of us recognize the name) concerning the subject of gun safety.

His thoughts closely parallel my own (in terms of needing to "keep it real"), but it does apply more to training efforts.

Shouldn't take more than a few minutes to read:

http://hobbes.ncsa.uiuc.edu/truegunsafety.html

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:24 pm
by nitrogen
Having watched someone discharge a weapon they checked to see was unloaded, I don't think it goes too far. (The extractor failed to remove a round, and it was in the barrel.)

Humans (especially under stress) always revert to training.
Making it a habit to always treat a gun as loaded is just safest.

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:03 pm
by mr surveyor
nitrogen wrote:Having watched someone discharge a weapon they checked to see was unloaded, I don't think it goes too far. (The extractor failed to remove a round, and it was in the barrel.)

Humans (especially under stress) always revert to training.
Making it a habit to always treat a gun as loaded is just safest.

they must not have visibly checked, or felt for empty chamber very well!

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:28 am
by JasonH
I treat them all as if they're loaded, even if I've triple-verified that they're not.

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:20 am
by KBCraig
flintknapper wrote:Even some gun owners accept these over the top rules...
Like the ever-popular, "one drop of alcohol, and you're a danger to society" argument?


nitrogen wrote:Having watched someone discharge a weapon they checked to see was unloaded, I don't think it goes too far. (The extractor failed to remove a round, and it was in the barrel.)
Where I went to school in rural Arkiesaw, we had the Hunter Safety Course as a mandatory part of 7th Grade studies. The game warden gave a good safety speech, then picked a 1911 up from the table. "Is this gun safe?", he asked.

We all dutifully answered "NOOOO!"

"And why not?", he asked. We replied: "Drop the magazine!" "Open the action!" (Hey, it was rural Arkiesaw, and we were all pretty firearms-savvy at 13!)

He removed the magazine. He worked the slide several times. Finally we all agreed the gun was safe, so he pulled the trigger.

BANG!

If you've never heard a .45 blank fired in a cinder block walled classroom,
you've just never had a wakeup call! :shock:

I have no idea what the game warden's name was, but I am forever grateful that he taught me what happens when a gun has a broken extractor.

For the record, I don't buy the "physically verify an empty chamber" routine. Most people can jab a pinky into the action and have no idea where they've touched a round in the chamber. Visual inspection counts for a lot more than "physically", in my book. Mindless routine breeds complacency.

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:29 am
by seamusTX
One more point to chew over here: Human beings need redundant safety procedures because we're not perfect. In a lifetime of doing anything risky, most of us are going to screw up sooner or later.

How many times have you spilled a cup of hot coffee or dropped a glass bottle? Those things are not life-threatening, but handling weapons has the same potential for errors.

If we were perfect, the only rule necessary would be "don't do anything stupid."

- Jim

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:41 am
by nitrogen
mr surveyor wrote:
nitrogen wrote:Having watched someone discharge a weapon they checked to see was unloaded, I don't think it goes too far. (The extractor failed to remove a round, and it was in the barrel.)

Humans (especially under stress) always revert to training.
Making it a habit to always treat a gun as loaded is just safest.

they must not have visibly checked, or felt for empty chamber very well!
Exactly. There's always something you can miss. That's why I treat every gun as if it's loaded, even if I "feel" it's not. It's just easier and safer that way.

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:50 am
by flintknapper
Question for those responding that they "treat the gun as loaded" even after verifying that they are not.

Please define "treat the gun as loaded". What will you do/not do with it?

Be specific.


Thanks,

Flint.