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Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:22 am**

My wife and I are looking at buying 10 -15 acres out here near Granbury. I have always gone to ranges to shoot and will be building my own on the property. I've already got some great plans for the handgun part of our setup, but I am not sure on the rifle/shotty.

Does anyone have any suggestions on a good backstop setup for rifles?

Do you guys think this would be enough land to do skeet/trap on? I don't want the pellets raining down on the neighbors!

Any other input I would love!

-Patrick

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:42 am**

Here is a story of that they just ran about the Texas law concerning land in a City Limits. I would think in the country/County 15 acres for skeet would be plenty.

(CBS 11 News) ALLEN Hunting brings more than a billion dollars into Texas every year, but for some North Texans it brings lead and feathers into their backyards.

One neighborhood, near Highway 121 and Stacy Road in Allen, is fired up about urban hunting.

Shooting a firearm is illegal in Allen unless you look at a loophole in state law. The law says hunting may be allowed... even just feet away from a neighborhood.

Allen resident Van Orr says, "My concern is that a stray bullet is going to fly through my bedroom window, quite frankly."

It is a yearly ritual these neighbors have come to dread. "They come and park their vehicles here and get out and stomp around and shoot," resident Teresa Johnson explains. "It starts early in the morning and it goes till late in the evening."

The residents are concerned about bird hunting right in the middle of Collin County. State lawmakers made it legal two years ago on land larger than 10 acres that was annexed into the city after 1981.

Game Warden Gary Miller says that the hunting is legal, "As long as you're more than 150 feet from any occupied building or residence."

Miller says the law was passed to allow more hunting opportunities in urban areas.

"Now you can actually get off work and head on out and shoot till dark," hunter Jeff King said.

But the hunters' happiness, neighbors say, is at the expense of their suburban reverie. "I'm like, surely they're kidding. They can't let these people shoot this close to the house, and children are walking," Orr said.

According to the game warden it's the hunter's responsibility to stay back and stay safe. Experts also say that birdshot is harmless from long range.

Despite the assurances some residents are still on edge. "I always jump, always hesitate a little bit, when I hear it [gunshots]," Johnson says.

According to the Texas Department of Parks and Wildlife there have been no hunting accidents since the 10-acre law was passed.

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:52 am**

Yeah, we are buying in the county area just to avoid a "city council" from telling us what we can do on our land. When I called the local sherrif to inquire about shooting on private property, he chcukled and said you can shoot on 1/4 acre as long as the bullet stays on your property. I love the laid back attitude we have come to find out here in the "rural" area.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of people with guns are rude, untrained, and completely unaware of where they are shooting. And I wouldn't want them shooting around me either. Probably the main reason I don't go to the range on the weekends. It's not the amount of shooters, it's the quality.

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:54 am**

hkshooter wrote:Probably the main reason I don't go to the range on the weekends. It's not the amount of shooters, it's the quality.

That is why I go on Monday morning's/early afternoon's.

All of the wholes in the target are mine.

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:09 am**

Anything over 10 acres should be OK for skeet/trap shooting.

I have 7.5 acres and my spread is just a little too small for comfortable trap shooting. But it is just fine for pistol shooting.

If I were doing it all over again, I would advise getting 10 acres or more. Counties can regulate shooting on lots of less than 10 acres if they want to, though few do. Over 10 acres and you are protected under state law. The county can't do anything. We had a close shave here in Bastrop County a few months ago where they were considering passing restrictions on shooting on less than 10 acre lots. Thankfully, the proposal withereed under a storm of protest.

For pistol or rifle shooting, I would recommend using an earthmover to push up a nice earthen berm. Make it around 10 feet high and you should be good as long as you don't go in for "acrobatics" while shooting.

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:32 am**

frankie_the_yankee wrote:For pistol or rifle shooting, I would recommend using an earthmover to push up a nice earthen berm. Make it around 10 feet high and you should be good as long as you don't go in for "acrobatics" while shooting.

So how tall do I need it to be before I can practice Gunkata?

This is one of the reasons I like the dry wash just across the property line on mom's place; the sides are more than head-high on all sides except back towards my land, and the natural bends in it allow for some variations in move-and-shoot drills.

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:49 am**

KD5NRH wrote: So how tall do I need it to be before I can practice Gunkata?

I wouldn't have any idea.

KD5NRH wrote: This is one of the reasons I like the dry wash just across the property line on mom's place; the sides are more than head-high on all sides except back towards my land, and the natural bends in it allow for some variations in move-and-shoot drills.

Obviously, a natural land feature makes the best backstop of all, as it can easily be higher than any feasible berm.

I have gentle rolling terrain where I live. So I had to make a berm. It's only around 8 feet + which is not as high as I would like it to be. But it's about as high as I could get it with the machine I rented.

It's plenty high enough for bullseye practice at 25 yds. And closer in I can practice some SD stuff too like drawing from a holster, double taps, etc.

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:31 am**

You need 50 acres for full legal protection with pistol, rifle, shotgun.

From the 2005 Session:

Shooting on agricultural land, and limits on city power to regulate shooting

SB 734 -- Amends Agriculture Code 251.002, 251.005 and Local Government Code 43.002, and adds Local Government Code 229.002.

Cities previously had unbridled authority, with no public recourse, to pass an ordinance prohibiting the discharge of a firearm, air gun or bow on any new land annexed by a city, regardless of its previous usage or lack of development. This gives landowners recourse and only effects city-annexed lands. It should help to slow down the anti-gun-rights effects of urban sprawl.

First, it limits the definition of an "agricultural operation" to a specific list of activities, and adds silviculture (development and care of forests) and wildlife management to the existing list. The law previously was not limited to the activities on the list.

Because some city regulations could affect shooting, certain controls are expanded and described in greater detail than previously, to help limit abuse. A city in general may not regulate anything on the redefined agricultural operations outside its boundaries, or that exist on newly annexed land.

Cities are also now specifically prohibited from regulating shooting on certain defined lands: 1 - if the gun is a shotgun, air gun, BB gun or bow and arrow, on 10 acres or more and not within 150 feet of a residence or occupied building on another property, if it is fired in a way that is unlikely to cross a property line, or 2 - for a centerfire or rim fire pistol or rifle of any caliber on 50 acres, not within 300 feet of a residence or occupied building on another property, and in a way not likely to cross a property line. The defined lands include those within the extraterritorial jurisdiction of a city, or areas annexed after Sep. 1, 1981.

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2007 10:53 am**

the general consensus for shot drop considerations when designing a sporting clays set up seeme to be 300 yards minimum, assuming you would only be shooting #6 shot or smaller. You probably aren't considering a full skeet or 5 stand type set-up, but a safe estimate of area needed just for the drop zone of a semi-circular area with a radius of 900 feet would require almost 30 acres. Keep in mind that shotgun shooting, at least clays, is "action" shooting that often may result in an errant shot in an unintended direction, like letting the muzzle follow a clay, bird or other moving airborne target in a direction you may really not want to discharge a load of pellets in. On the other hand, rifle range would more than likely be static shooting and be much more controllable.

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:12 am**

Renegade,

You're right about the 50 acre requirement for pistols and rifles. I stand corrected.

Of course just because cities can regulate shooting in their ETJ areas doesn't mean that they necessarily do so. From what I have seen, in rural Texas, very few cities exercise this authority.

This brings up an interesting question. Living in Smithville's ETJ, I don't get to vote in elections for mayor or city council, at least as far as I know. I do vote in elections for the school board.

I also don't pay Smithville city property taxes - just county taxes and the Smithville ISD tax. Nor do I get Smithville water, sewer service, or electricity.

But after reading Loc. Gov. Code 229.002, it looks like the people running the city can exert authority over people living in the ETJ area, even though those people have no say in electing the city leadership.

If so, I have a real problem with that. How can that be possible?

Or am I mistaken in that I can vote for city government officials (while living in the ETJ) and just never realized it?

Thankfully, there seem to be a lot of shooters in Bastrop County. The recent proposal to adopt county regulations on lots of less than 10 acres went down in flames.

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:32 pm**

KD5NRH wrote:So how tall do I need it to be before I can practice Gunkata?

How good a shot are you? If you control your shots, a couple of MOA is sufficient. You can shoot over any berm if you're careless with muzzle direction.

Kevin

Posted: **Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:41 pm**

frankie_the_yankee wrote:But after reading Loc. Gov. Code 229.002, it looks like the people running the city can exert authority over people living in the ETJ area, even though those people have no say in electing the city leadership.

If so, I have a real problem with that. How can that be possible?

If you think ETJ is bad, wait until the city council that you can't vote for (or against) declares you "annexed", and that you must pay city taxes, be subject to city zoning and restrictions, must pay thousands of dollars to connect to city sewer and water, etc.

It's OT, but ETJ and annexation are some of the worst abuses ever designed. Worse than eminent domain, even.

A few years back, Texarkana annexed the previously unincorporated area called Pleasant Grove (there is PG ISD, but a school district doesn't count as incorporated). There were howls of protest from PG residents who were accustomed to country living and didn't want to be in the city limits (they'd mostly moved to escape the city). Didn't matter. The city said they "needed the tax revenue" of the higher valued PG properties.

The very next year after annexing PG, Texarkana called for (and won) a property tax increase. They had the chutzpah to say they needed a tax increase to pay for services to the newly incorporated areas (which they'd annexed to increase tax revenue).

Posted: **Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:16 am**

KBCraig wrote:
frankie_the_yankee wrote:But after reading Loc. Gov. Code 229.002, it looks like the people running the city can exert authority over people living in the ETJ area, even though those people have no say in electing the city leadership.

If so, I have a real problem with that. How can that be possible?
If you think ETJ is bad, wait until the city council that you can't vote for (or against) declares you "annexed", and that you must pay city taxes, be subject to city zoning and restrictions, must pay thousands of dollars to connect to city sewer and water, etc.

Fortunately, that will never happen where I live.

My area is designated as endangered species habitat for the Houston Toad. No high density development is allowed. The predominant land use is ranching, with some mixed low density residential and commercial use. Extending city services would never come close to flying as a financial proposition. In fact, it would probably drive the city bankrupt.

I just have a hard time understanding how a city can exert authority over its ETJ when it provides no services, no police protection, collects no revenue, and allows no one there to vote.

And (to get back on point) as for shooting regulations, why would it want to? The people in the ETJ can't vote in city elections, and the people living inside city limits couldn't care less about what goes on in the ETJ. Nobody's shooting in their back yards, right?

None of this makes sense. I think there is some other aspect of the law that we are overlooking. Something involving the county government perhaps, where people in the ETJ do have a vote.

Posted: **Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:32 pm**

I live in an unincorporated subdivision in the Fort Worth ETJ. Fort Worth has twice tried to annex us, and we successfully fought it off. So far. If it ever happens, we will move further out.

Right now I can target shoot on my 1 acre lot if I'm careful, and I am. I limit it to pellet guns and .22 rimfire. Judging from the gunfire I occasionally hear a few doors down, some residents are OK with centerfire.
I also take noise into consideration. When my two closest neighbors let their dogs out and then ignore the incessant barking, I assume noise is not a problem and it's a good time to punch some paper. Usually by the time I've gone through a couple targets, the dogs are back in the house, or at least quiet.

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Enough land?

Enough land?

Annexation - bah!