TexasCHLforum.com

Please post documented accounts of Texans who were indicted or sued after using a weapon in self-defense in accordance with the law.

Here's what I'm looking for:

• cases in Texas
• legitimate self-defense
• enough information to positively identify the case

I am not looking for cases of criminals who claimed self-defense, or "friends" were drinking after midnight and one of them claimed self-defense after shooting another.

- Jim

How do you define "legitimate" SD?

If it's by a lack of an indictment, the definition becomes circular with respect to your request.

If it is by some other standard, legitimacy could be in the eye of the beholder, with different people having different opinions about a given case.

May I suggest a definition?

1) The shooter was/is not a criminal, not in possession of illegal drugs, etc.
2) The shooter was unlawfully threatened or attacked with unlawful force or the clear threat of unlawful force.

0r,

3) The shooter acted to prevent or stop a felony in progress or someone committing "mischief in the nighttime."
4) The shooter was not intoxicated.
5) When shooting, the shooter acted intentionally. (i.e. the shooting was not accidental.)

I'm guessing that in future posts to this thread we will learn of the occassional indictment and a very small number of civil suits, if any.

Thanks for the clarification.

I meant "legitimate" according to our innate sense of morality, and usually according to the law. Grand juries can return indictments based on bad information and prejudice.

If Gordon Hale had been indicted because of the DA's biased representations to the jury, his case would have fit the description.

- Jim
[Edited to correct typo]

There are several documented in Chris Bird's book "The Concealed Handgun Manual." Mr. Bird was a reporter for many years before getting his CHL so he is more aware of these types of cases.

As Frankie said, there are going to be very few cases posted here. The vast majority of civil cases never make the news unless it's a high profile case due to the participants or the high dollars involved. I have searched for some kind of database for civil and criminal cases, but have yet to find anything. The Brady's probably have something, but they wouldn't want to share.

I have searched for some kind of database for civil and criminal cases, but have yet to find anything. The Brady's probably have something, but they wouldn't want to share.

Actually, searching some of the gun ban lobby's websites may be a good starting point. From time to time, some of these groups try to discredit "shall issue" by compiling lists of what they call "incidents" involving CHL'ers. I seem to remember at least one such list dealing purely with incidents occurring in TX.

Now it's true that when reporting these incidents, the gun ban people exaggerate and shade the details in an effort to make the actions of the CHL'ers involved look bad. And in a lot of the reported incidents, no action was taken by LE against the CHL'er (because in fact they had done nothing wrong except offend the foolish sensibilities of the gun banners).

But a number of the reports seemed to have enough detail to allow for further research to the original sources, news reports, etc. So it might be possible to dig up the kind of info requested in the OP - at least for criminal cases.

Civil cases frequently do not make the news unless there is some sensational angle. The case that comes to mind involved a Japanese student in Halloween costume who knocked on the door of a LA homeowner (on Halloween Night) and acted in some kind of strange way that the homeowner interpreted as a threat. The homeowner ended up shooting the kid dead. He was no-billed, but lost the multi-million dollar civil suit that followed.

But of course, that case doesn't apply here because it didn't happen in TX.

I remember that case with the Japanese student and was very surprised at the no bill.

WildBill wrote:There are several documented in Chris Bird's book "The Concealed Handgun Manual." Mr. Bird was a reporter for many years before getting his CHL so he is more aware of these types of cases.

OK. Thanks. I have that book (excellent book, BTW).

In the chapter "Deadly Force" he describes this incident:

Pete Kanakidis, Houston, shooting occured May 30, 1996. Kanakidis was a CHL holder, though that is irrelevant to this case.

He was attacked by three men in his business. Two had a long-running dispute with Kanakidis. The other was apparently brought along as "muscle." After Kanakidis tried several times to get them to leave and had called the police, two of them started punching him in the head, knocked him down, and kicked him. He got away from them, retrieved a pistol, and "persuaded" them to leave. The third man (the "muscle" guy) came back, got into the vehicle they had arrived in, and reached for something under the seat. When he began to get out, only inches from Kanakidis, Kanakidis shot him.

He was found to have a "sawed off baseball bat" in the vehicle.

Kanakadis then had an angry confrontation with the police when they arrrived and refused to answer further questions. He was arrested and charged with murder.

He was indicted, and found not guilty after a jury trial. His legal bills totalled $75,000.

My summary of this incident does not do it justice. There are several pages of threats, running back and forth, retreating, attacking, beating, escaping, and the attackers coming back for more after Kanakadis had displayed a weapon and told them that the police were coming.

This is exactly the kind of case I was looking for.

BTW, the defense attorney was Mike Hinton.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:My summary of this incident does not do it justice. There are several pages of threats, running back and forth, retreating, attacking, beating, escaping, and the attackers coming back for more after Kanakadis had displayed a weapon and told them that the police were coming. - Jim

That's why I didn't attempt to summarize it. The story of the guy in the Porsche is also frightening.

The Porsche guy was exactly like Gordon Hale: charged and no-billed.

One conclusion that we can draw from these cases is that when you combine shooting of an unarmed attacker and a hostile DA, you're likely to have legal problems.

- Jim

This is not a Texas event, but certainly it bears watching under the criteria of unjust prosecution for self defense, for this guy is really being put through the wringer for apparently defending himself in what amounted to a home invasion by local police. It would appear these cops learned nothing from the flop performance of the Atlanta PD in the surprise drug raid death of 92-year-old Kathryn Johnston in 2006. This case, in Norfolk, VA is very similar to Johnston's, even down to the small amount of marijuana suspiciously "found'" on the premises. We'll see about the validity of that claim in due time.

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/01/aunt-sa ... r-was-shot
http://reason.com/blog/show/124611.html

casingpoint wrote:This is not a Texas event, but certainly it bears watching under the criteria of unjust prosecution for self defense,

You are correct on both counts. We should monitor these apparent abuses of authrority and do whatever we can to eliminate them.

However, I am looking for cases under Texas law for a specific reason.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:BTW, the defense attorney was Mike Hinton. - Jim

Have you contacted him?

I have not contacted Mr. Hinton. I got all the facts that I wanted from The Concealed Carry Handbook.

I hope I didn't give the impression that I'm expecting an indictment or something. I'm just looking for information to add to a train of thought.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:I hope I didn't give the impression that I'm expecting an indictment or something. I'm just looking for information to add to a train of thought.- Jim

No, I didn't think that I thought you needed more references for an article or something of that nature.

See http://www.trailerparkshow.com/conceal1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's not a news article, but rather an opinion piece written by the guy from whom I took my CHL course. He was called as an expert witness in a case in Austin, and this link contains some comments regarding the case. The grammar could be slightly better, and it's a bit long for a letter to the editor, which is the reason it was written. The Austin paper did not publish it.