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Man Charged With Supplying Gun to Felon is an interesting little story about the man charged with supplying the gun used in the recent Maryland daycare shooting. Does Maryland have handgun registration? Or did ATF find the original buyer using its illegal database compiled from 4473 forms? Anybody know?

Surfed over to NRA-ILA and answered my own question. Maryland does have de facto registration of handguns and "assault weapons." Private transfer is not allowed, and the cops record transactions through dealers. The story doesn't say whether the guy is up on state charges or federal, or both.

Why do you say that the information gained from 4473 forms constitutes an "illegal data base" for ATF ? What laws have been violated to make the information 'illegal' ?

In a day and age when terrorists individuals, cells and organizations are trying to obtain any type of weapon they can get their hands on to kill us, I have no problem with the ATF using a database of information provided by those legally purchasing weapons.

DaveT wrote:I have no problem with the ATF using a database of information provided by those legally purchasing weapons.

"It's for the children"

Just Kidding...

The problem is that it makes for quick confiscation, ie the UK.

I have no problem with the ATF using a database of information provided by those legally purchasing weapons.

I have a BIG problem with the ATF maintianing a database. It's noone's business how many or what type of legally obtained firearms that I own.

The criminals with get the guns one way or another. Maintaining a database will no prevent that. A gun bought on the street or blackmarket won't be in any database anyway.

Remember, it isn't about how many ior what kind of guns that you possess, it's the manner in which those guns are used.

Any government agency keeping a database will do nothing but lead to eventual confiscation.

dws1117 wrote:

I have no problem with the ATF using a database of information provided by those legally purchasing weapons.

I have a BIG problem with the ATF maintianing a database. It's noone's business how many or what type of legally obtained firearms that I own.

The criminals with get the guns one way or another. Maintaining a database will no prevent that. A gun bought on the street or blackmarket won't be in any database anyway.

Remember, it isn't about how many ior what kind of guns that you possess, it's the manner in which those guns are used.

Thinking the same thing at the same time....look at the time stamp on my previous post

DaveT wrote:Why do you say that the information gained from 4473 forms constitutes an "illegal data base" for ATF ? What laws have been violated to make the information 'illegal' ?

The 1986 Firearms Owners Protection Act makes it illegal for any governmental agency to create any type of firearms owner database, list, etc. Any such databases that were in existance at the time the act passed did not have to be destroyed, but no additional information could be added.

DaveT wrote:In a day and age when terrorists individuals, cells and organizations are trying to obtain any type of weapon they can get their hands on to kill us, I have no problem with the ATF using a database of information provided by those legally purchasing weapons.

I respectfully disagree. Databases are not required for any law enforcement agency to run a trace. The trace starts with the manufacturer to the jobber to the distributor to the FFL and ultimately to the person to whom the FFL sold the gun. From there on, no record keeping is required for non-FFL's, so the trace stops if the original purchaser sold the gun and didn't keep a record, or if the gun was stolen. No database will change this.

As to prevention of terrorism, I fail to see how an illegal 4473 database is going to help. If a 4473 is filled out, then the purchase was from an FFL so he either ran a NICS check, or saw the purchaser's CHL.

The ultimate goal of terrorists is not to kill Americans, but to change our way of life and deprive us of our freedoms they do not understand and which they despise. The greatest threat to American liberty is not the rise of a person or government bent on tyranny, but the unintended consequences of the actions of well-meaning people who value security over freedom.

Respectfully,
Chas.

DaveT wrote:I have no problem with the ATF using a database of information provided by those legally purchasing weapons.

Have you ever seen the movie Red Dawn? Not as big of an issue at the moment, but Form 4473 was mentioned specifically in the movie. Foreign invaders used the forms to round up all the guns (and possibly gun owners). Names, address, and gun(s) are all listed on the forms. It's pretty scary in the movie. Left a big impression on me when I was younger and more recently left a big impression on my wife's dad when he saw the movie for the first time.

The greatest threat to American liberty is not the rise of a person or government bent on tyranny, but the unintended consequences of the actions of well-meaning people who value security over freedom.

+1

Very well stated!

very nice posts in this topic! I was thinking of Red Dawn just the other day...except I was thinking of how the commies were rounding up the Boy Scouts because they were a 'para-military group'[/quote]

Charles, last paragraph well said.

Although I am in total agreement with the sentiments posted, let me play devil's advocate here and ask:

Do you feel the same way about having to register your automobiles? Is there an auto forum where members fuss about having to register their automobiles?

What about having to register to vote? (As we say in Texas, "Vote early and vote often." And Tom DeLay illustrates another saying here, "Texas has the best politicians money can buy".)

What about requiring sex offenders to register? If they have served their time in prison, then isn't registration a violation of their freedom?

In the interest of consistency, how is gun registration different from these examples? (I can't believe I said all this, but I was just wondering and asking in fun. And no, I'm NOT a member of the ACLU.)
Paul G

pfgrone wrote:Although I am in total agreement with the sentiments posted, let me play devil's advocate here and ask:

Do you feel the same way about having to register your automobiles? Is there an auto forum where members fuss about having to register their automobiles?

I object. Doesn't do much good. I also oppose driver licensing, mandatory insurance, and mandatory seatbelts.

What about having to register to vote?

Elections, to be valid, must be conducted with only qualified voters participating. Voter "registration", as currently in place, does nothing to ensure that only qualified voters vote; non-citizens (even illegal aliens) can register to vote, as can felons. The chance of being purged from the rolls is slim. There is no ID requirement, so it's possible to register multiple times under false names.

I have no problem with voter validation, especially if it only takes place at the time of the vote and their is no permanent "registration".

What about requiring sex offenders to register? If they have served their time in prison, then isn't registration a violation of their freedom?

In effect, sex offenders receive a life sentence. After incarceration, they serve the rest of their live under supervision. This can only be viewed as part of their sentence. The alternative to registration could be life imprisonment without possibility of parole.

Kevin

pfgrone wrote:<snip>
In the interest of consistency, how is gun registration different from these examples? (I can't believe I said all this, but I was just wondering and asking in fun. And no, I'm NOT a member of the ACLU.)
Paul G

The automobile was invented about a century after the ratification of the Bill of Rights, didn't become common until the 1920s, and didn't become a necessity until the 1950s. States managed to categorize driving as a privilege rather than a right, and we've let them.

When our republic was founded, states determined the qualifications for voters, and in most states only taxpayers (usually property owners) had the right to vote. (Actually, going back to that system would be a great idea, but would probably require a violent revolution.) There are still some citizens who are forbidden to vote, e.g., felons, hence voter registration.

To my knowledge, nobody (with the possible exception of Bill Clinton) has ever had the right to commit a sexual offense.

On the other hand, Americans have always had the right to own firearms for their defense, and for other lawful purposes. The only purpose that gun registration can possibly serve is the denial of that basic right. That's especially true in today's totalitarian socialist political climate.