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Hello all, I was reviewing the Texas Hand Gun laws and found this. I have paste it below. My question is when I was in class the instructor told us not to pull our weapon unless we were going to use it. Because if someone else saw you pull your weapon and called a Leo that you could get arrested for flashing a firearm. But in this case the law seems to say you can to deter the criminal and not have to use deadly force.

Question is this a new law or is it superseded with another law.

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PC §9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force
is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes
of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by
the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose
is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly
force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

The way my instructor put it might have been a little better:

"Only pull your weapon out if you could leagally shoot it"

WaltherP99 wrote:Hello all, I was reviewing the Texas Hand Gun laws and found this. I have paste it below. My question is when I was in class the instructor told us not to pull our weapon unless we were going to use it. Because if someone else saw you pull your weapon and called a Leo that you could get arrested for flashing a firearm. But in this case the law seems to say you can to deter the criminal and not have to use deadly force.

Refer to this thread http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... php?t=1262 for a good discussion on this topic.

In summary it says you can only threaten deadly force (drawing or showing your firearm) if you would be justified in using deadly force.

Thanks

tomc wrote:

WaltherP99 wrote:Hello all, I was reviewing the Texas Hand Gun laws and found this. I have paste it below. My question is when I was in class the instructor told us not to pull our weapon unless we were going to use it. Because if someone else saw you pull your weapon and called a Leo that you could get arrested for flashing a firearm. But in this case the law seems to say you can to deter the criminal and not have to use deadly force.

Refer to this thread http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... php?t=1262 for a good discussion on this topic.

In summary it says you can only threaten deadly force (drawing or showing your firearm) if you would be justified in using deadly force.

No, it shows that threatening to use force is justified in any circumstance where the actual use of that force is justified.

It goes on to read that it IS NOT deadly force if you threaten to cause death or serious bodily injury by producing a weapon, if you intent is to create an apprehansion that you WILL use deadly force if necessary.

txinvestigator wrote:It goes on to read that it IS NOT deadly force if you threaten to cause death or serious bodily injury by producing a weapon, if you intent is to create an apprehansion that you WILL use deadly force if necessary.

Could you please clarify that last part with an example? I think I get the gist of it but I'm not 100%.

Flatland2D wrote:

txinvestigator wrote:It goes on to read that it IS NOT deadly force if you threaten to cause death or serious bodily injury by producing a weapon, if you intent is to create an apprehansion that you WILL use deadly force if necessary.

Could you please clarify that last part with an example? I think I get the gist of it but I'm not 100%.

Sure, and I will try to spell better this time too.

I am leaving the movies with my wife at dusk. We are walking to the car in an area of the parking lot where there are no other people. Because I am a member of Texas CHL forums ;) I am in condition yellow. I am carrying on a conversation with my wife, but also paying attention to my surroundings.

Across the lot I observe 3 older teenage boys, all wearing trench coats (its 90 degrees in Dallas) heading directly for us. They are intently looking at us. I lok around and decide that we cannot get back to the building or where there is a crowd before the teens can be on top of us.

I have us change direction to move from the teens path. They change course to keep bearing down upon us. At this time I am in condition orange. I tell my wife of my concerns and tell her to get her cell phone and dial 911, but not hit send yet.

I have us walk faster and again the teens bear down. So I suddenly wheel towards them, stop and put my left hand out towards them and state firmly and clearly, "you boys stop right there, do not come any closer. I feel threatened and you need to stay back and move around".

Verbal Commands are very low on the force continuum. If the kids mean no harm, they may mouth off, but they will not approach closer. By giving verbal commands, it becomes reasonable for me to believe that harm is imminent if they approach closer.

Rather than walk away, one of the boys begins to threaten us verbally and all three continue to aproach.

Considering the number of potential attackers, the possibility of them possessing weapons (remember the trench coats?) and them esclating the situation after my verbal commands to back away, my belief that harm is imminent has now increased.

At this point I still desire to defuse the situation without resorting to deadly force, so I pull my vest back, allowing my handgun to be visible, while I loudly instruct my wife to dial 911. I tell the teens that if they approach further I believe that they intend to assault us, that we are outnumbered and I intend to defend us completely.

From that point what happens depends on them.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the explanation Tx!

txinvestigator wrote:

tomc wrote:

WaltherP99 wrote:Hello all, I was reviewing the Texas Hand Gun laws and found this. I have paste it below. My question is when I was in class the instructor told us not to pull our weapon unless we were going to use it. Because if someone else saw you pull your weapon and called a Leo that you could get arrested for flashing a firearm. But in this case the law seems to say you can to deter the criminal and not have to use deadly force.

Refer to this thread http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... php?t=1262 for a good discussion on this topic.

In summary it says you can only threaten deadly force (drawing or showing your firearm) if you would be justified in using deadly force.

No, it shows that threatening to use force is justified in any circumstance where the actual use of that force is justified.

It goes on to read that it IS NOT deadly force if you threaten to cause death or serious bodily injury by producing a weapon, if you intent is to create an apprehansion that you WILL use deadly force if necessary.

Put me in the agreement column on this one...

But "tx" would you also agree that it would be better "if" the suspect provided a reason first, to do you harm to some reasonably assessable degree, and then respond with a degree of force necessary to repel, or force the threat to disengage, before actually having to discharge your weapon to "stop" the threat???

I know situations require split second decisions, and you should not be expected to take an appreciable pause to try and figure it out before acting...

We just have the luxury of slowing the pace down here...Which I think is a good thing...

Ok, so you feel that these 3 young men are up to no good, and continue to approach. You have verbally advised them that you feel threatened, and that you intend to defend yourself. Finally you have revealed your carry piece.

This presents a few questions from me...

1. You have exposed your firearm. Whether drawn and sighted on the intended target or not, it is revealed. Perhaps you are justified, perhaps not. But if you are going to reveal it, why not go all the way and draw it and take defensive posture? Technically, there is no difference. Showing it is showing it, right?
2. Why reveal your defense, and not be fully prepared to use it? What I mean by this is, reveling it may cause the BG to turn and run, or back down, but in a worse case, what would prevent him from drawing his weapon if armed? With so many hard choices and decisions to make during this ordeal, calculating your draw and speed thereof, would not be something I would want to worry about.
3. At what point did you fear your life or severe bodily harm? Heck, there are aggressive enough sales people out there that they could seem like a threat when they were more of a nuisance. Based on the scenario, yes, there is reason to believe they "may" have weapons, or "eventually" cause harm. According to the law, you can not even expose your weapon unless you are legally able to defend yourself and others from eminent death or bodily harm [sic]. More on this below, I have a big beef with this...
4. This entire scenario, you have the lower hand. If these are hardened BGs, and have no respect for the law, every one of your precautionary measures raises their awareness that you are going to be a problem, and they may go right to drawing and shooting.

While in Texas we have the means and measures to legally carry a firearm, the laws seemingly keep us from being able to use that defense until, in my opinion, it is too late. Who defines eminent harm? If someone is within 7 yards of you, the danger is already there and you have almost no time to react as an average citizen. Are we expected to get into a fist fight with someone and hope that we are a better fighter? No? So when confronted by someone in a fist fight, are we to be able to draw and stop that threat using deadly force? What would a jury of peers say? It's just a fist fight? What if you would have been kicked while you were down, in the head? That is serious bodily injury or possible death.

Anyway, this could go on forever. My point is that regardless of the situation, the choices we have to make to abide by the law will either get us killed, or in jail. That is just my opinion, YMMV. Sorry if this seems rantish...[/list][/list]

da.suxor wrote:

Ok, so you feel that these 3 young men are up to no good, and continue to approach. You have verbally advised them that you feel threatened, and that you intend to defend yourself. Finally you have revealed your carry piece.

This presents a few questions from me...

1. You have exposed your firearm. Whether drawn and sighted on the intended target or not, it is revealed. Perhaps you are justified, perhaps not. But if you are going to reveal it, why not go all the way and draw it and take defensive posture? Technically, there is no difference. Showing it is showing it, right?

No, I don't believe it is the same. I would display the weapon before they are close enough for me to need to draw the weapon.

[*]Why reveal your defense, and not be fully prepared to use it? What I mean by this is, reveling it may cause the BG to turn and run, or back down, but in a worse case, what would prevent him from drawing his weapon if armed? With so many hard choices and decisions to make during this ordeal, calculating your draw and speed thereof, would not be something I would want to worry about.

Who said I am not prepared to use my weapon? Having been in many deadly force situations, I am confident in my ability to assess and react under rapidly unfolding situations.

[*]At what point did you fear your life or severe bodily harm?

fearing for your life or harm is not justification for use of force.

According to the law, you can not even expose your weapon unless you are legally able to defend yourself and others from eminent death or bodily harm [sic].

That is not true at all. 9.04 gives me justification to produce my weapon.

[*]This entire scenario, you have the lower hand. If these are hardened BGs, and have no respect for the law, every one of your precautionary measures raises their awareness that you are going to be a problem, and they may go right to drawing and shooting.[/list]

I don't agree with that at all. Every one of my precautionary measures raises my justification to ultimately use deadly force if necessary.

While in Texas we have the means and measures to legally carry a firearm, the laws seemingly keep us from being able to use that defense until, in my opinion, it is too late. Who defines eminent harm?

Your understanding of Justification in Texas is not accurate. Nowhere is deadly force, or even force justified for eminent (sic) harm.

If someone is within 7 yards of you, the danger is already there and you have almost no time to react as an average citizen. Are we expected to get into a fist fight with someone and hope that we are a better fighter? No?

It depends in many factors. SIze and number of attackers, your experience level, other less lethal means of defesne available to you, etc.

So when confronted by someone in a fist fight, are we to be able to draw and stop that threat using deadly force?

It depends. Maybe, maybe not. WHat are the details and variables?

What would a jury of peers say? It's just a fist fight? What if you would have been kicked while you were down, in the head? That is serious bodily injury or possible death.

Yes it is, and IMO a justifiable reason for deadly force.

Anyway, this could go on forever. My point is that regardless of the situation, the choices we have to make to abide by the law will either get us killed, or in jail. That is just my opinion, YMMV. Sorry if this seems rantish...[/list][/list]

I disagree completely. In fact, I was in a situation just yesterday where I thought I was going to have to use deadly force against someone. I and 2 other people actually drew our weapons on a person. As the incident is under investigation, I have been asked to not disclose details. But I have no concern of repercussion at all.

txinvestigator, I just wasted your time, as well as my own. I did not read 9.04 correctly. I see now that SS 9.04 allows production of a weapon to create the aprehension of it's use, when threatened.

Sorry...

da.suxor wrote:txinvestigator, I just wasted your time, as well as my own. I did not read 9.04 correctly. I see now that SS 9.04 allows production of a weapon to create the aprehension of it's use, when threatened.

Sorry...

LMAO. I need to practice my typing anyway.