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Washington shooter had a CHL and schizophrenia
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 4:25 pm
by lawrnk
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/364 ... ing28.html
I can't think of any way a state can truly know if someone has a mental disease.
A Snohomish man arrested after three people were shot last weekend at the Northwest Folklife Festival had a valid concealed weapon permit despite a history of mental health problems, police in Seattle and Snohomish County confirmed Tuesday.
Related content
· Photos of the chaos immediately after the shooting
· The Big Blog: Why 'purple green chickenman' matters
A disclosure during a Monday bail hearing that Clinton C. Grainger, 22, suffers from several mental health problems prompted questions about whether he should have been eligible to carry a concealed weapon permit at the time of the shooting at the festival on Saturday.
Grainger was carrying a Glock 19 handgun with 15 rounds in an ankle holster, according to police reports.
He takes medication for anxiety and schizophrenia and has been in a methadone maintenance program through the WCHS Renton Clinic since the age of 18, according to court documents.
He applied for a permit with the Snohomish County Sheriff's Office, and it was approved in January 2007 after a background check showed no disqualifying history, police said.
Grainger is being held in the King County Jail on three counts of second-degree assault after three people were shot during a fight between him and another man. Bail has been set at $350,000.
One bullet struck all three victims, passing through one man's nasal cavity before it penetrated another's wrist and lodged in a woman's leg.
Prosecutors have until Thursday to file charges, Prosecutor's Office spokesman Dan Donohoe said.
Under state and federal law, a mental health diagnosis by itself isn't enough to invalidate someone's right to firearms or a concealed weapon permit, said Eric Nelson, state assistant attorney general, who chaired a Washington state workgroup on mental health and firearms access after the Virginia Tech massacre last year.
The Virginia Tech shooter, Seung Hui Cho, previously had been ordered by a judge into outpatient mental health treatment due to a mental disorder. It should have flagged him in any attempt to legally buy a gun, but the record was never submitted from Virginia databases into a national law enforcement database that is checked by firearms dealers.
Under federal law, unless someone has been involuntarily committed to a mental institution, found not guilty by insanity or deemed by a judge as a "mental defective" and a danger to himself or others, he or she doesn't lose the right to possess firearms, Nelson said.
Washington state law is similar, although it is less restrictive and applies to civil commitments for periods of 90 or 180 days. Federal law also covers anyone ordered held for a 14-day period at a mental hospital or treatment center, Nelson said.
"There is no prohibition in state or federal law that attaches to outpatient mental health treatment where there is no court intervention," he said.
The Snohomish County Sheriff's Office found no red flags after running Grainger's name through law enforcement databases, Capt. Kevin Prentiss said.
In addition to criminal records, state law requires agencies to check with databases managed by the Department of Licensing and the Department of Social and Health Services that keep names of those ineligible to possess weapons due to mental health reasons.
"If there had been any disqualifying information, he would have been denied his permit," Prentiss said.
Grainger has juvenile convictions for misdemeanor theft and possession of stolen property, as well as a long history of traffic offenses. He has no record of serious felonies, according to court documents, which would have invalidated his firearm rights.
If prosecutors file charges this week against Grainger, his concealed weapon permit would be suspended while his case is pending, Prentiss said. If convicted, authorities would determine whether his permit should be revoked.
Re: Washington shooter had a CHL and schizophrenia
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 4:38 pm
by SC1903A3
No matter how well a system is set up someone will slip through sooner or later. The anti carry crowd will use this as a reason to call for revoking concealed carry. You can't reason with any group that raises a cry to revoke concealed carry when they use an aberration like this to validate their stance . You just have to maintain the high ground and respond to their arguments with facts not emotions.
Re: Washington shooter had a CHL and schizophrenia
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 4:46 pm
by dukesean
That has always been the cheap trick employed by the anti's, to parade a very unfortunate child or victim to tug at people's emotions. Unfortunately they will grab onto this instance as a reason to ban all concealed permits there. When they try to do that, the only way to fight back is to play dirty and use emotions ourselves. To parade the countless number of would-be rape victims saved by a concealed carry permit, etc.
Re: Washington shooter had a CHL and schizophrenia
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:47 pm
by agbullet2k1
Russell wrote:Even though I may be flamed for this, I do personally think that there needs to be a better system in place to do the background checks with that will guarantee medical records are updated, and searched as well.
No flaming here. I agree that if you are going to say "we'll restrict licenses to mental cases," you'd better check thoroughly. Because if one does slip through, it gives ammo to the antis to say "see, it doesn't work." With this, it almost does more damage to do something incorrectly than to not do it at all.
Re: Washington shooter had a CHL and schizophrenia
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:15 pm
by SC1903A3
there needs to be a better system in place to do the background checks with that will guarantee medical records are updated, and searched as well. I also think high-risk diagnoses, such as schizophrenia, need to be included as a flag that will disqualify you regardless of if the diagnosis includes violence or not.
+1
I think there are more people on this board that agree with you than you realize. I've dealt with bipolar people at work. When they're on meds it's not a problem, but when they're off them it's a completely different ball game. I've also dealt with a few paranoid schizophrenics. They're the ones that make the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
Re: Washington shooter had a CHL and schizophrenia
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:20 pm
by bryang
What an unfortunate situation. This is the kind of thing the antis wait for so they can get on their bandwagon. We all suffer for deeds of a few that manage to slip through the cracks. Unfortunately, this does happen and I also think we must be careful of what we do and say, that it not be turned and used against us.
Re: Washington shooter had a CHL and schizophrenia
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 7:47 pm
by shootthesheet
This seems to me to be reason to do away with all government requirements for individuals to exercise their 2A rights. Some bad and ill people will always slip thru their system so we should require no licensing for the majority that is law abiding and not ill. Stop hindering our rights and we will take care of our own security.
Re: Washington shooter had a CHL and schizophrenia
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 8:58 pm
by CleverNickname
What I'm most surprised about is a Glock 19 in an ankle holster? I thought the bell-bottom revival ended a couple years ago.
Re: Washington shooter had a CHL and schizophrenia
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:00 pm
by boomerang
Washington? Isn't that the state that won't honor Texas CHL because we issue to military and veterans under 21?
Oh yeah, and
One bullet struck all three victims, passing through one man's nasal cavity before it penetrated another's wrist and lodged in a woman's leg.
Re: Washington shooter had a CHL and schizophrenia
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:06 pm
by agbullet2k1
CleverNickname wrote:What I'm most surprised about is a Glock 19 in an ankle holster? I thought the bell-bottom revival ended a couple years ago.
That was my thought, too. And people on this forum worry about printing...
Re: Washington shooter had a CHL and schizophrenia
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:13 pm
by boomerang
agbullet2k1 wrote:That was my thought, too. And people on this forum worry about printing...
With people dressed up like that guy on the right, who notices printing?
Re: Washington shooter had a CHL and schizophrenia
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:23 pm
by KBCraig
boomerang wrote:With people dressed up like that guy on the right, who notices printing?
Perhaps the link above will explain it, at the article entitled:
· The Big Blog: Why 'purple green chickenman' matters
Re: Washington shooter had a CHL and schizophrenia
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 9:30 pm
by KBCraig
I hope everyone will stop assuming that the guy was just a nut who went nuts and started shooting. We don't know that at all. Even people who are nuts can be justified in a shooting.
The article focuses on his past problems and the background check process, but the only details of what happened are these:
Grainger is being held in the King County Jail on three counts of second-degree assault after three people were shot during a fight between him and another man. Bail has been set at $350,000.
One bullet struck all three victims, passing through one man's nasal cavity before it penetrated another's wrist and lodged in a woman's leg.
We don't know if he was a victim of assault by the other man. We don't know if the other man was armed in any way. We don't know how many shots he fired, although we do know that a single shot struck all three people, so it could have been just the one (it probably was just one shot fired, otherwise they couldn't conclude so quickly that a single shot caused all three injuries).
It's also clear from the photo that he took some pretty good licks to the face, which can justify deadly force in response. Everyone here remembers the Gordon Hale and Kenny Tavai incident, right?
Re: Washington shooter had a CHL and schizophrenia
Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 2:02 am
by Skiprr
Considering our own state's requirements, this caught my eye:
He...has been in a methadone maintenance program through the WCHS Renton Clinic since the age of 18...
The only thing I'm aware of when "methadone" and "maintenance program" are used together is treatment for opioid addiction.