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Just a thought I had today, what if you train to group your shots very well and when/if the time came to use your skill to save your life you group your shots so well that is looks as if you meant to cause unrecoverable harm.

Cause I figure that when/if you had to use your concealed handgun to protect yourself, your adrenaline will be rushing and if you train all the time and have very good groups and you fire multiple rounds all hitting within a 3" group on your target, could that look like intentional manslaughter?

What do y'all think ?

I can pretty well guarantee you that you will NOT have a well grouped pattern if you are in a quick life or death situation. Most folks are lucky to hit their target center mass with one shot, much less multiples, in a high pressure encounter.

What is with all this paranoia about being "too good" a shot? Would it be better to be thoroughly untrained and not able to hit the broadside of a barn so that in a defensive shooting engagement you spray bullets everywhere, missing your attacker and hitting innocent bystanders?

My response to the question of why I practice so much would be that I am so concerned with the possibility of hitting an innocent bystander that I want to do everything I can to ensure that doesn't happen.

Keith B wrote:I can pretty well guarantee you that you will NOT have a well grouped pattern if you are in a quick life or death situation. Most folks are lucky to hit their target center mass with one shot, much less multiples, in a high pressure encounter.

I agree..........
Keep in mind that in your training, the paper is not shooting back at you........

If I am that good a shot and do happen to get a good grouping. Then if the Judge/Lawyer/relatives wanted to ask me why I made a kill shot grouping. My response is going to be "Because the innocent bystanders weren’t trying to kill me. I was more worried about stopping the one who wished me bodily harm."

However I do agree with other posters about this senario not likley to happen in the first place.

Keith B wrote:I can pretty well guarantee you that you will NOT have a well grouped pattern if you are in a quick life or death situation. Most folks are lucky to hit their target center mass with one shot, much less multiples, in a high pressure encounter.

That's why its important to train at a range that only allows one shot at a time and no movement because we all know the bad guy will have a target on his chest and will just stand there and take it.



Most shootings occur within seven feet and you are usually behind the curve and must react explosively. This calls for moving out of the line of fire while putting several shots into a target that will probably be moving as well.

Taking your time plinking the x-ring is not training for this type of encounter. Its why most police shootings expend a large number of rounds to get a few if any hits.

This is also why you must have a weapon and carry method that will allow rapid response with little chance of bobbling the shot or the safety.

Your skill will be reduced by at LEAST 50% in a stressful situation. There is no way on Gds green earth or heavens above that you will shoot a half-inch group when your life is on the line.

This is a nonexistent problem. You don't have anything to worry about being too good in a fight for life or death.

-geo

agreed....deadly force is DEADLY!

with that being said, and using that same logic....if you are a marginal shooter, and have to defend yourself, but the BG does not expire....do you think you would get raked over the coals for maiming him because you failed to seek additional training to improve youyr skillset? (civil lawsuit not withstanding, cause you KNOW thats coming)

bryang wrote:This is a nonexistent problem. You don't have anything to worry about being too good in a fight for life or death.

-geo

Well, not worried about being too good or too prepared for a fight for my life, just thinking about the events that happen after such an event.

smokindragon wrote:Just a thought I had today, what if you train to group your shots very well and when/if the time came to use your skill to save your life you group your shots so well that is looks as if you meant to cause unrecoverable harm.

What if you don't train enough and you miss him?

smokindragon wrote:Just a thought I had today, what if you train to group your shots very well and when/if the time came to use your skill to save your life you group your shots so well that is looks as if you meant to cause unrecoverable harm.

Cause I figure that when/if you had to use your concealed handgun to protect yourself, your adrenaline will be rushing and if you train all the time and have very good groups and you fire multiple rounds all hitting within a 3" group on your target, could that look like intentional manslaughter?

What do y'all think ?

The counter argument to your logic is that we are training to the highest possible level for the purpose of reducing or otherwise mitigating the risks that come with the application of deadly force with a firearm. Think about it this way: If I incompetently swing my fists in defense of myself or another, the worst case scenario is I or the other person dies as a result of an ineffective defense. No innocent third parties are likely to be seriously hurt in this sort of exchange. But the equation changes dramatically if we introduce firearms to the mix.

If you launch an errant round and it strikes an innocent third party, you are civilly and criminally liable for any personal or property damage that results from your actions. With this in mind, it seems reasonable to train to the highest practical level. It may not be practical or reasonable to train up to the level of a Delta operator but, it would be a stretch to suggest that knowingly seeking mediocrity is a good thing.

To quote SRVA, "There is no doubt in my mind that if attacked by a piece of cardboard I will win the fight."

nitrogen wrote:Your skill will be reduced by at LEAST 50% in a stressful situation. There is no way on Gds green earth or heavens above that you will shoot a half-inch group when your life is on the line.

Absolutely correct, due to the psychological and physiological effects that usually occur during a life threatening event (tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, extremely rapid heart rate, involuntary unrination or defecation, trembling, weakness in the extremities, tachypsychia (slowed sense of time), etc. Not everyone suffers all of them, but everyone I've ever encountered suffered some of them. You may have as well during another traumatic event such as an auto accident.

Add to that the facts that :

-the lighting may well be poor
-both you and your assailant are very likely to be moving (if you're not, you won't have to worry about the size of your group)
-angles and stance will not present you with a face on body profile the size of a B27 target
-there will be noise, shouts, and distractions
-your assailant may be firing his own weapon at you (and hitting you, especially if you're not moving)

and you don't have to worry about groups- your big concern will be placing any stopping hits on the assailant at all and not hitting someone else.

nitrogen wrote: There is no way on Gds green earth or heavens above that you will shoot a half-inch group when your life is on the line.

Jack Bauer does.

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