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I took a few days to process this before posting it to share the story.

Last Friday after I got off work i swung by the local McDonald's on the way home to pick up a soda for the drive home. As I'm waiting in line for the drive through a vagrant comes up to the window on the drivers side and starts asking for money. My window was already down because I was only 2 cars back from the speaker.

I tell the guy to step away from the car and go away. I make a habit of never giving money to folks begging for it. I've been known to fill up a strangers gas tank if they're stranded but as a general rule I don't hand out money. I don't even carry cash most of the time anymore other than my own emergency gas fund which I don't give away.

The guy inches toward my door and puts his hands out and asks for money again. Again I tell him to step away from the car and "get away from me" in a much sterner voice. He inches closer yet again and I take a quick glance around me. Car in front. Car in back. Car on the right trying to get in line. Him and a curb/lawn on my left. I'm boxed in.

He puts his hands on my driver door and asks for money again explaining that he's really hungry and just wants something to eat.... yeah, he just wants something to eat. I tell him, getting really irritated now, to step away from my car. I'm contemplating opening the door and smacking him with it but he hasn't done anything directly offensive yet other than invade my personal space and the door is locked anyway so i would have to unlock it first which I dont really want to do.

Just about the time I go to open my mouth again to tell him he better get away from me he starts groping on the inside of my driver door through the open window. It looks like he's trying to find the latch to open the door. Oh no he didn't just do that...

Really without much thought on my part at all I took my left hand, made a fist and smashed his hand against the inside of the driver door. At the same time I reached over between the seats and pulled out my 45. He had jumped back from the apparent inflected pain to his left hand and was yelling a stream of obscenities. About that time he noticed the gun in my right hand, well out of his reach but pointed squarely at him. At that particular moment he must have realized he hasn't called his mom in a long long time cause he turned around and ran off with deliberate intent.

Right about then I noticed the car in front of me had pulled up. I pulled up to the speaker and ordered my coke. I was thirsty after all. I told the lady at the window she might want to tell the manager there's a vagrant running around begging for money on the lot and then pulled off and started on my way home.

When I got home I called the police to report that I had to draw my weapon. A few minutes later 2 officers showed up and I explained what happened. They said there was nothing they could really do but if anything ever came of it at least there would be a record of me calling in to report the incident.

Just another reason why it's better to have it and not need it than it is to need it and not have it. Funny though. I'm very grateful just pulling the weapon was enough of a deterrent to resolve the conflict. I really would have hated to have dealt with the expense and hassle of going to a grand jury for a shooting, even a justified one. I wonder if that guy will think twice about trying something like that on someone else? I suspect he'd done that before. He was very smooth and deliberate in the way he tried to talk himself into my space.

Note, this happened at the McDonalds near downtown houston. Pierce and main are the closest streets I think. It was right at 5:00pm. The whole confrontation probably took about 10 seconds total.

I think you handled the situation perfectly! My hats off to you, for a potentially dangerous situation.

Despite your continued efforts to get him away from you, he continued to escalate the situation by moving closer and closer. He had you boxed in and he knew it. It could have really gotten nasty, and you did the right thing. From start to finish, with calling LEO.

Thank goodness you were carrying.

I don't see how deadly force was justified unless you thought he was going to do harm to you by opening the door or reaching thru the window. I take it you did and told the cops that? I would have rolled the glass up when I first saw him but, from the amount of time you had it seems you did the best you could. I try to remember to keep the doors locked and windows up after I had a similar experience in El Paso. I tell them now I will call a LEO and that they will give him/her information where he/she can get a hot meal and more. They usually leave without further trouble and it rarely happens that they approach me. It is the ones that come up from a blind spot that make it worse. I see no reason for them to approach me at all but especially from a place they know I will have a hard time seeing them.

Keep the windows up and the doors locked and make them try to smash the glass to get to you. That way you can prove you were trying to keep them out and had to use deadly force. Just my opinion and I know how hard it is to try to cover every base every time. We shouldn't have to but that is the way it is I guess.

thanks. Sent to the wife as she's often running kidlets through drive throughs et al so she thinks about a resopnse. I shall do so as well. I'd never thought of that.

shootthesheet wrote:I don't see how deadly force was justified unless you thought he was going to do harm to you by opening the door or reaching thru the window.

PC 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
(1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:
(A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;

The intent of the intruder is not a factor here. He could be getting into your vehicle to tell you about the Great Pumpkin.

"With force" is a somewhat vague term, but it has been defined in case law as any effort to overcome a lock or open something that its owner intended to be closed. (As usual, IANAL.)

BTW, Pierce and Main in Houston is a scary place. I don't spend one second around there if I can avoid it.

- Jim

shootthesheet wrote:I don't see how deadly force was justified unless you thought he was going to do harm to you by opening the door or reaching thru the window. I take it you did and told the cops that? I would have rolled the glass up when I first saw him but, from the amount of time you had it seems you did the best you could. I try to remember to keep the doors locked and windows up after I had a similar experience in El Paso. I tell them now I will call a LEO and that they will give him/her information where he/she can get a hot meal and more. They usually leave without further trouble and it rarely happens that they approach me. It is the ones that come up from a blind spot that make it worse. I see no reason for them to approach me at all but especially from a place they know I will have a hard time seeing them.

Keep the windows up and the doors locked and make them try to smash the glass to get to you. That way you can prove you were trying to keep them out and had to use deadly force. Just my opinion and I know how hard it is to try to cover every base every time. We shouldn't have to but that is the way it is I guess.

I agree, by the letter I don't believe deadly force was justified at that juncture. There was no stated threat but there certainly was an implied one. He wasn't trying to open my door to hand me tea and crumpets.

I do, however, believe that force was justified as seamus just illustrated (thx). The threat of deadly force and/or pointing a deadly weapon is considered force.


As to rolling up the window:
I did briefly consider rolling up the window before he actually touched my door, but I decided a while back that I never really liked that option in scenarios where someone is already close enough to reach through the open window. I don't want someone yanking on my glass as it's going up and either breaking it or damaging the mechanism. It's never really appealed to me as a great option. If it was the only option I had I'd probably do it, but between opening the door and hitting him with it and rolling up the window I tend to think hitting someone with the door would better and would at least theoretically force someone back with enough force which might give you a little time to roll up your window and get it secured in place hopefully before they recover.

An almost identical thing happened to me a couple years ago, in the drive-thru at the Jack in the Box on I-35 south of Dallas, exit 412.

The vagrant was persistent, knocking on my window (it was closed and the door locked). I repeated waved him off, but he persisted until I reached for my gun. When I looked back, he had absolutely vanished into thin air. Didn't see him again.

What was interesting was that I never presented the gun. I think my furtive movement was correctly interpreted by him. This tells me that he's had a gun pulled on him at least once before. Sigh.

TheArmedFarmer wrote:An almost identical thing happened to me a couple years ago, in the drive-thru at the Jack in the Box on I-35 south of Dallas, exit 412.

The vagrant was persistent, knocking on my window (it was closed and the door locked). I repeated waved him off, but he persisted until I reached for my gun. When I looked back, he had absolutely vanished into thin air. Didn't see him again.

What was interesting was that I never presented the gun. I think my furtive movement was correctly interpreted by him. This tells me that he's had a gun pulled on him at least once before. Sigh.

Thanks for the info. I didn't know we had vagrants that close to home.

Thanks for posting, sounds like you handled the situation good. Only two things I would do diffently:

1. My first words, in a stern voice with strong direct eye contact, would be "Sorry I can't help you" versus "step away from the vehicle". Reasoning: I prefer this route as is it is initially less confrontational and may end the situation right away, your words may further escalate the situation. Don't get me wrong, your choice of words will be used instantly if he doesn't respond quickly to the "I can't help you" statement. That said, the situation dictates what should be said and it sounds like you may have been caught off guard and were in defense mode as he was in your private space instantly with no warning. So its sounds like your initial choice of words was appropiate, but this is something to think about.

2. I make it a habit to not have my window rolled down until I'm at the window/speaker to order.

Other things to consider: Be conciencous of not boxing yourself in, sometimes this in not avoidable, but its something to think about. I know you weren't at the window/speaker yet, but another thing I do, is when I pull up to the speaker/window, I pull as close to it as possible as this cuts off the space for a person to approach your drivers side window, I do this at drive up ATM's as well, I think its a good tactical move and forces someone to approach the other side of your vehicle, thus creating more space between you and the vagrant.

Again, thanks for posting, this is a scenario for all of us fast food endulgers to consider and think about. It sounds like you handled the situation very good, you gave the guy plenty of warning and tried to de-escalate as best as possible.

I wouldn't change anything that you did, but here's the obligatory, "This is what I'da done..." that we all feel we have to contribute

stun gun. I mean, wouldn't that have been perfect. it's sitting right there in the cup holder, in the center console, he reaches in, you grab it and shock the bajeebus outta him, then you have time to draw/roll up window/drive off/dance a jig while he rethinks his intentions.

may not be the perfect solution, but just an idea I thought of all on my own.

other'n that, I'd just say try to be aware of what's going on around you, especially when you're boxed in at a drive through.
I'll fully admit that there have been times when I've become distracted either by thoughts or by actions, so it can happen to anyone. no biggie.

at the end of the day, you didn't have to fire on anyone, and you got to go home safely (#1 in my book).

Could always order one of these...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDrzMGdYWZc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DoubleJ wrote:...This is what I'da done...

stun gun. I mean, wouldn't that have been perfect.

He said he already had a .45 on him. He didn't need a 9mm too.



Just kidding! Sorry, the devil made me do it. It was just too good to pass up on that old chestnut about a 9mm being a .45 set to "Stun;" and no, I ain't a volunteerin' to get shot by a 9mm.

Anyway LedJedi, given the surprise factor and how quickly it all unfolded, I think you handled it as well as anyone else would have - which is to say VERY well. Seriously though, that stun gun idea is attractive, but with my luck, I'd forget it on the seat and then "give myself a charge" the next time I sat in the car. I used to have one of those things years ago back in California. Are they legal in Texas?

I think that I would have rolled the window up on his arm.

You handled the situation perfectly, sir, good job. Thank you for sharing the story with us, you did good by calling the police to file a report.

JLaw

You went to the McDonald's at Peirce and Main?