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What constitutes a "school sponsored activity"?
School grounds where a school sponsored activity is on-going - TPC §46.03(a)(1)

Say a college allows a church to hold an outdoor church service on their campus. Is that church service "school sponsored"?
Or say some of the kids that live on campus form a band. They ask permission from the school to play a concert on the school grounds. Is that concert "school sponsored"?

I would say that both of those events are hosted by the school but not necessarily sponsored by them. Would you carry to either of those events?

I wouldn't in either case. Because the event(no matter what kind it is), is on school property. To me, that law you quoted is pretty cut and dry, and is meant to be taken literally. At least I do.

Neither of your examples are school sponsored events. I'll toss out a few more concrete examples.

This is my understanding... Not a lawyer, but know a few...

A church rents the gym of a a high school for Sunday services. This is NOT school sponsored but is on the premises of a school. You cannot carry there. IF the church held the service on the athletic field, that is property, not premises and you could carry there legally.

Another example. You are parent of a student going on a field trip to the zoo. You are going along as a helper. The zoo is not posted. But you cannot be armed while you are involved with that school sponsored event no matter where it goes, even if they stop for lunch at a restaurant that is not posted.

The state CHL Instructor Lawyer gave this example.

A CHL holder was driving down the street and saw a High School Band car wash. He pulled in a had his car washed. While cleaning out the inside, a student saw the owners handgun under the front seat. The student told an adult......adult called Police and the CHL holder was charged with having a handgun on the grounds of a school sponsored event. This is the Lawyers story, not mine. I am just the messenger here. It might be a totally bogus story, but she tells it every re-qual.

Hmmm. I wonder if a non-CHL carrying under the seat could be prosecuted in this same scenario. I think they could only if it were on school property. Right?

In the car wash example, above, I don't think so. It has been argued several times on this forum, and the collective wisdom among those more knowledgeable than I am is that in order for an event to qualify as a school sponsored event the school must have the authority to disallow firearms on the site. For example, the school can't hold a field trip at the public library and suddenly claim that no firearms are allowed. They have no authority to disallow firearms at the library. If you are participating in the event as a chaperon, then you can't carry, but ordinary, uninvolved citizens with a CHL should not be affected.

This aspect of the law is as yet untested, so you will take your chances with a LEO and prosecutor who sees it differently.

jamullinstx wrote:In the car wash example, above, I don't think so. It has been argued several times on this forum, and the collective wisdom among those more knowledgeable than I am is that in order for an event to qualify as a school sponsored event the school must have the authority to disallow firearms on the site. For example, the school can't hold a field trip at the public library and suddenly claim that no firearms are allowed. They have no authority to disallow firearms at the library. If you are participating in the event as a chaperon, then you can't carry, but ordinary, uninvolved citizens with a CHL should not be affected.

This aspect of the law is as yet untested, so you will take your chances with a LEO and prosecutor who sees it differently.

I lean toward jamullinstx view. The problem is that the State Lawyer interprets the car wash scenario as a school sponsored event. That means the state may try to prosecute you. You may end up being able to beat it in court, but it is going to be costly. The issue is there is not a real clear definition of 'school sponsored events' and there has not been a real test case to set precedence.

Now, IANAL, but my personal guidelines have been that a school sponsored event taking place somewhere it does not necessarily make the property of limits (the zoo or museum field trip scenario.) However, if you participate in that event, i.e. a car wash, or attend a school band concert hosted by the school in a city park, THEN you are in violation. Participating in my opinion is interacting with the school group in some manner. That is my view and 2¢ worth.

I just came across this scenario this past weekend and thats why Im asking.
Some college students that all go to the same church put on a concert event. The event was technically sponsored by the church as an outreach to college kids. The school granted permission for them to use some common grounds outside of the cafe.

If anything, this would be a VERY interesting test case. If you got in trouble for carrying at this school sponsored event then that would mean the school was sponsoring a Christian event, which they usually tend to shy away from (with the lame excuse of separation of church and state...which doesnt actually exist). I wonder which way the school would lean. Anti-gun or anti-christian?

Kieth B - How does one participate in a school concert at the city park? Does hearing it while passing by count? How about stopping to listen from across the street? 5o yards away? Actually sitting down in their chairs? I guess this is the "grey" area that no one ever hopes to have to test out and Im guessing until that actually happens, we wont have a clear answer.

RiveraRa wrote:I just came across this scenario this past weekend and thats why Im asking.
Some college students that all go to the same church put on a concert event. The event was technically sponsored by the church as an outreach to college kids. The school granted permission for them to use some common grounds outside of the cafe.

If anything, this would be a VERY interesting test case. If you got in trouble for carrying at this school sponsored event then that would mean the school was sponsoring a Christian event, which they usually tend to shy away from (with the lame excuse of separation of church and state...which doesnt actually exist). I wonder which way the school would lean. Anti-gun or anti-christian?

In this case, while still gray, I would say it was NOT a school sponsored event (it was church sponsored) if they are only allowing use of the grounds. If it was an actual music group that was supported by the college from a class or school sponsored association, THEN it would be a school sponsored activity.

RiveraRa wrote:Kieth B - How does one participate in a school concert at the city park? Does hearing it while passing by count? How about stopping to listen from across the street? 5o yards away? Actually sitting down in their chairs? I guess this is the "grey" area that no one ever hopes to have to test out and Im guessing until that actually happens, we wont have a clear answer.

If you plan to attend the event, or happen to be in the area and stop to watch/listen for a period of time in the midst of the actual event audience (not just casually walking by and hearing the music and seeing it happening), THEN IMO you become a participant.

Again, these are just my guidelines and opinion. And we all know opinions are like belly buttons; everyone has them.

Keith B wrote:In this case, while still gray, I would say it was NOT a school sponsored event (it was church sponsored) if they are only allowing use of the grounds. If it was an actual music group that was supported by the college from a class or school sponsored association, THEN it would be a school sponsored activity.

Allow me to throw another "gray area" scenario into the mix...

If a scouting group (Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts) is holding a meeting indoors at a local public elementary school, I'm presuming that carrying inside the building is still off limits, as it is still considered premises of a public school. But what if the meeting is outdoors, but on public school property?

Example: My daughter's Girl Scout troop, as a scouting project, has gone around the school property in the evening, picking-up trash and other debris. There are about 15 girls, and with them spread across a large property, keeping an eye on everyone is a difficult task. I helped-out, but decided not to carry my handgun. I carried spray and a club instead.

It's not a school sponsored event, but certainly on school property. I know the law specifically distinguishes between premises and property, but as many have stated, I don't want to be the test case.

Thoughts?

pdubyoo wrote:

Keith B wrote:In this case, while still gray, I would say it was NOT a school sponsored event (it was church sponsored) if they are only allowing use of the grounds. If it was an actual music group that was supported by the college from a class or school sponsored association, THEN it would be a school sponsored activity.

Allow me to throw another "gray area" scenario into the mix...

If a scouting group (Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts) is holding a meeting indoors at a local public elementary school, I'm presuming that carrying inside the building is still off limits, as it is still considered premises of a public school. But what if the meeting is outdoors, but on public school property?

Example: My daughter's Girl Scout troop, as a scouting project, has gone around the school property in the evening, picking-up trash and other debris. There are about 15 girls, and with them spread across a large property, keeping an eye on everyone is a difficult task. I helped-out, but decided not to carry my handgun. I carried spray and a club instead.

It's not a school sponsored event, but certainly on school property. I know the law specifically distinguishes between premises and property, but as many have stated, I don't want to be the test case.

Thoughts?

You are correct on the no carry in building, no matter what (unless given permission by the proper authorities per the statutes.)

I'll throw in even another angle in this one. Many schools sponsor a scout troop. Now, if the scout troop is actually sponsored by the school, then do their activities all become school sponsored events?

Keith, you caught the problem I was going to mention. In the stated scenario (scout troop program cleaning school grounds), my question was who sponsored the troop. If the school sponsors the troop, I would think the courts would see the activity as school sponsored. If a local church sponsored the troop and the activity was the troop's community service project, i would think it was not school sponsored.

If the troop is sponsored by the school, I would think all of its activities would be school sponsored. I have come to agree with Charles that this would only ban CHL carry if the activity is on school grounds. I am not sure how it affects carry for the people associated with the activity when off school grounds (say at the zoo), though I tend to think it would still apply to the troop members then. But there is no way it could affect non-troop members when off school grounds, and there is a good argument for the members.

In the case of my daughter's Girl Scout troop, they are not school sponsored. In fact, I don't know of any GS troops that are. Boy Scouts may be different, but I'm blessed with 3 girls, so I'm not up to speed on what the Boy Scouts do.

I'm really looking forward to the teenage years!!

srothstein wrote:..... I am not sure how it affects carry for the people associated with the activity when off school grounds (say at the zoo), though I tend to think it would still apply to the troop members then. But there is no way it could affect non-troop members when off school grounds, and there is a good argument for the members.

I agree with your post for the most part Steve, but think the last part is the hardest to figure out. The example I look at is I attend a concert that my daughter is participating in at a say the Meyerson Symphony Hall. Now, it is definitely a school sponsored event, and I purposely went to attend a school sponsored event, even though off school grounds. This might be a hard one to beat. Now, if I just happened by a school concert in a park and stopped to listen for awhile, that would be easier to explain and get me off the hook.



Bottom line, no test cases or clear definition means it could go a dozen different ways on one of these. I have always learned to trust my gut on these types of scenarios. If I have to question myself on where it is or isn't the legal thing to do, then I play it toward the safe side and don't do it.

Keith,

I used to think so too. I would have thought the school sponsored activity would apply to anywhere I was going that I knew the school would have an activity at.

And I read Charles' post and how he interpeted the law. His thoughts about how the school sponsoring could only affect where the school had the authority to ban make sense (if I am understanding them correctly). After all, I know for a fact that schools take kids to the zoo on a regular basis. If my original interpretation was correct, then the zoo would be banned (at least on school days) since I would know there would be school sponsored activities there. I think we all agree that this is not a viable interpretation and not what was intended.

So it is clear that on school grounds, a sponsored activity would ban. Off school grounds for non-participants would not ban. I think there might be a gray area in the off school grounds at a school sponsored activity for the participants. This would include the adult volunteers and the school employees.

The part that convinced me about your specific (concert) example is a little different. If we agree that the zoo example is correct, then consider going to a mall where they have the school choir doing a concert. Clearly the mall would not eb banned for most people. If I am going to the mall to hear my child sing, it would not make sense that I could carry in the rest of the mall while I was shopping but not in the specific area of the concert. It would also not make sense that I could not carry in that group, but you, as a shopper who just happened to be there and stopped to listen, could carry with your CHL. So, I came tot he conclusion that being in the audience to watch is not the same as being a participant. And from that, I come to the conclusion that even going to a concert hall where the school rented the building and that is all we are there for (common for some larger school concerts or plays), I could carry in the audience.

The same logic must apply to the law in its interpretations for the law to be valid and observable (otherwise it is unconstitutionally vague).

And since I am not a lawyer, I could very well be wrong in any of these observations or interpretations. I try to make my decisions using some sort of reasonable logic that I can explain later. If I can explain and it sounds reasonable, I stand the best chance of getting off if I do become the test case.