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Periodic reminder: "Gun Control" Does Not Work

Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:39 am
by seamusTX
I'm am going to repeat this as many times as necessary:

In the year 1900, the United Kingdom had the lowest rate of violent crime that has ever been seen before or after in history. It also had no "gun control" laws.

A century later, they had banned all handguns and semiauto long guns for non-LEO civilians. They now have a higher rate of violent crime per capita than the U.S. They have more homicides and shooting assaults than they had when anyone could own and carry a firearm.

The UK is an island nation. All arrivals are subject to government inspection. Nevertheless, criminals have no trouble obtaining contraband weapons.

Meanwhile, nearly every household in Switzerland has had a rifle and ammunition since rifles were invented. Their rate of violent crime has always been enviable.

Guns do not cause crime. "Gun control" does not prevent crime. It never has. It never will.

- Jim

Re: Periodic reminder: "Gun Control" Does Not Work

Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:47 am
by A-R
seamusTX wrote:I'm am going to repeat this as many times as necessary:

In the year 1900, the United Kingdom had the lowest rate of violent crime that has ever been seen before or after in history. It also had no "gun control" laws.

A century later, they had banned all handguns and semiauto long guns for non-LEO civilians. They now have a higher rate of violent crime per capita than the U.S. They have more homicides and shooting assaults than they had when anyone could own and carry a firearm.

The UK is an island nation. All arrivals are subject to government inspection. Nevertheless, criminals have no trouble obtaining contraband weapons.

Meanwhile, nearly every household in Switzerland has had a rifle and ammunition since rifles were invented. Their rate of violent crime has always been enviable.

Guns do not cause crime. "Gun control" does not prevent crime. It never has. It never will.

- Jim
Great post Jim. My only question - being the old newspaper editor that I was - where is the background info, supporting statistics and such. Empirically I know you're statements are true, but I'd love to send this info out to my email and Facebook groups and there will always be a few who say "oh yeah, prove it!"

My Google Foo ain't as good as some or I'd look up the supporting info myself.

Re: Periodic reminder: "Gun Control" Does Not Work

Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:09 am
by seamusTX
Thanks.

Wikipedia has a concise history of "gun control" in the U.K.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politi ... ed_Kingdom" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wikipedia is not a canonical source, of course; but this article has dozens of footnotes to government and other credible sources.

Here's a 2001 BBC article describing the increase in "gun crime" after the handgun ban: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/1440764.stm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's a more recent article in the U.K. press: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ecade.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This trend has become worse, and you can find other articles about the phenomenon.

Don B. Kates and Gary Mauser published a detailed study, "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and some Domestic Evidence," which concluded no statistical relationship between legal firearms ownership, crime, and suicide in various European countries: http://www.garymauser.net/pdf/KatesMauserHJPP.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BTW, some Americans tend to think that firearms are tightly controlled in all European countries except Switzerland. That is not exactly the case. Some countries, like the U.K., have very strict laws. Others are similar to some U.S. states, where any legally qualified citizen who jumps through the paperwork hoops can buy firearms. Some are actually less stringent than the U.S. in terms of items like supressors ("silencers").

- Jim

Re: Periodic reminder: "Gun Control" Does Not Work

Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:30 pm
by ELB
seamusTX wrote:

... Some are actually less stringent than the U.S. in terms of items like supressors ("silencers").

- Jim
I recall reading some time back that one of the Scandinavian countries requires the use of suppressors when hunting to keep the racket down. What a concept. ;-)

Luckily in the US, suppressors are so tightly controlled that the various mafias are never able to quietly kill anyone via gunshot, leaving the body to be found hours or days later in the trunk of car or some-such. Never happens. uh-uh. :roll:

Re: Periodic reminder: "Gun Control" Does Not Work

Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:49 pm
by A-R
ELB wrote: Luckily in the US, suppressors are so tightly controlled that the various mafias are never able to quietly kill anyone via gunshot, leaving the body to be found hours or days later in the trunk of car or some-such. Never happens. uh-uh. :roll:
Seems to me a lot of our gun control restrictions - at least at Federal level - can be traced back to the Al Capone gangster days, Bonnie & Clyde, etc. The National Firearms Act of 1934 that made it much more restrictive to own machine guns, shotguns, silencers etc was a response to gangsters and bank robber etc using Tommy Guns and sawed off shotguns. What would be interesting is to see if gang murders and bank robberies are better, worse, or the same today as they were before the 1934 law. I'm guessing there are worse gang problems today than back then. Just more proof that gun control doesn't work at controlling guns, much less crime. It didn't take the country long to learn that Prohibition didn't work. Why has it taken us so long to learn the NFA and later the GCA didn't work either?

Re: Periodic reminder: "Gun Control" Does Not Work

Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:59 pm
by Kythas
austinrealtor wrote:
ELB wrote: Luckily in the US, suppressors are so tightly controlled that the various mafias are never able to quietly kill anyone via gunshot, leaving the body to be found hours or days later in the trunk of car or some-such. Never happens. uh-uh. :roll:
Seems to me a lot of our gun control restrictions - at least at Federal level - can be traced back to the Al Capone gangster days, Bonnie & Clyde, etc. The National Firearms Act of 1934 that made it much more restrictive to own machine guns, shotguns, silencers etc was a response to gangsters and bank robber etc using Tommy Guns and sawed off shotguns. What would be interesting is to see if gang murders and bank robberies are better, worse, or the same today as they were before the 1934 law. I'm guessing there are worse gang problems today than back then. Just more proof that gun control doesn't work at controlling guns, much less crime. It didn't take the country long to learn that Prohibition didn't work. Why has it taken us so long to learn the NFA and later the GCA didn't work either?
Because these bans are emotional and not logical. It makes people FEEL good and makes them FEEL like they're solving a problem.

Re: Periodic reminder: "Gun Control" Does Not Work

Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:11 pm
by seamusTX
austinrealtor wrote:The National Firearms Act of 1934 that made it much more restrictive to own machine guns, shotguns, silencers etc was a response to gangsters and bank robber etc using Tommy Guns and sawed off shotguns. What would be interesting is to see if gang murders and bank robberies are better, worse, or the same today as they were before the 1934 law.
The data is available if you're interested.

The rate of gang-related crime went down after the end of Prohibition for reasons that had nothing to do with gun laws. The rate went up starting in the 1960s when the baby boomers reached young adulthood. At the same time, the use of illegal drugs became more widespread and market turf was worth fighting over. GCA 68 did nothing to slow that trend.

Criminal use of machine guns has dropped to near zero for a couple of reasons: Straw purchases and undocumented transfers of machine guns are between impossible and so illegal that no one will attempt them. There is no reservoir of legally owned machine guns to steal, except those owned by law enforcement (which are stolen or lost from time to time).

Machine guns aren't that useful to criminals anyway. A lot of damage can be done in a short time with semi-auto firearms.

The only obstacle to producing short-barrel shotguns or rifles "at home" is their illegality. They are seized from criminals quite often.

- Jim

Re: Periodic reminder: "Gun Control" Does Not Work

Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:26 pm
by ELB
austinrealtor wrote:
Seems to me a lot of our gun control restrictions - at least at Federal level - can be traced back to the Al Capone gangster days, Bonnie & Clyde, etc. The National Firearms Act of 1934 that made it much more restrictive to own machine guns, shotguns, silencers etc ...
Even the Feds at that time recognized that citizens had the right to bear arms, even tommyguns and such. So the NFA did not ban them. Instead, it was a revenue act -- it placed a tax on them. Which of course has been warped into seizing Airsoft replicas, because with enough engineering one can make a fully-automatic weapon out of a brick...

The Sullivan Act, New Yorks' wonderous handgun law, was proposed and passed by a man who was in fact a criminal who also happened to be in the NY legislature. The tax for a license to own or carry a handgun was set high enough that normal citizens could not afford to have one, thus solving the problem of some of his associates and workers getting shot when they tried to lean on businessmen. The permits themselves were issued through the NYPD, which was corrupt and controlled by Sullivan and his cronies; thus his bodyguards were legally armed, but his political (and criminal) opponents were not.

However it was all worth it, since NYC has never had a gun used in a murder since, and unicorns run free in Central Park.

Gah. My blood pressure is going up....

Re: Periodic reminder: "Gun Control" Does Not Work

Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:30 am
by texas1234
Please try and post something newer than 2001. I am in a debate with a liberal who wants to ban guns. I need something new to prove my point. Thanks for posting this.

Re: Periodic reminder: "Gun Control" Does Not Work

Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:40 am
by marksiwel
texas1234 wrote:Please try and post something newer than 2001. I am in a debate with a liberal who wants to ban guns. I need something new to prove my point. Thanks for posting this.
Put on a Ski Mask and mug him! That'll change his tune :woohoo

Re: Periodic reminder: "Gun Control" Does Not Work

Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:58 am
by chabouk
Good topic, seamus. While there is an element of preaching to the choir here, it's good to remind people of historical facts.
seamusTX wrote:The rate of gang-related crime went down after the end of Prohibition for reasons that had nothing to do with gun laws. The rate went up starting in the 1960s when the baby boomers reached young adulthood. At the same time, the use of illegal drugs became more widespread and market turf was worth fighting over. GCA 68 did nothing to slow that trend.
Quite a few of us have noticed that the correlation there is prohibition. When the government outlaws something that has a strong market demand, the black market will step up to supply it. Whether it's liquor or a prescription pharmaceutical or a native plant species, someone will supply it. The cost of production increases with the risk, and the reduced competition increases the profit margin, making it more lucrative, right up to the point that people will use illegal force to keep or increase their market share. After all, they're already breaking the law, so what's one more?

ELB wrote:Even the Feds at that time recognized that citizens had the right to bear arms, even tommyguns and such. So the NFA did not ban them. Instead, it was a revenue act -- it placed a tax on them. Which of course has been warped into seizing Airsoft replicas, because with enough engineering one can make a fully-automatic weapon out of a brick...
Exactly. It's an interesting note in the history of Constitutional thinking: in 1918-1919, Congress knew they had no Constitutional authority to ban alcohol. So, they offered up the 18th Amendment, which was passed, then ratified, so then the Volstead Act could ban alcohol while passing Constitutional scrutiny. After a dozen+ years of disaster, the 21st Amendment repealed the 18th (and any legislation relying upon it), in 1933.

Just a year later, Congress recognized the same limitation, and knew they didn't have authority to ban guns or gun accessories, so they chose to tax them out of the marketplace. I've read (but not confirmed) that the $200 tax was chosen because it was a 100% tax on the selling price of a Thompson. Congress built on this with the Gun Control Act of 1968, relying heavily on the now-perverted Interstate Commerce Clause to regulate sales. Still, it wasn't until 1986, just two years short of the Constitution's bicentennial, that they became bold enough to impose an actual gun ban, for the first time ever (civilian ownership or transfer of machine guns manufactured after May 19, 1986). Following on the success of the Hughes Amendment, the Assault Weapons (and standard capacity magazine) Ban passed in 1994.

The first drug laws were similar: the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906 was a consumer safety law that required labeling of preparations containing narcotics and opiates. The 1914 Harrison Narcotics Tax Act required registration and taxation of opium and coca-based products, but did not ban them. Same for the Marihuana {sic} Tax Act of 1937. The registration and taxation requirements amounted to an outright ban, just like the 1986 machine gun ban has priced automatics out of the reach of all but speculators and well-heeled enthusiasts.

By the time the Controlled Substances Act was passed in 1970 (completely banning certain substances; again, with no Constitutional authority), the underground market was already in place and thriving. Attempts to shut it down made it more lucrative, and more violent as a direct result.

If Congress outlawed caffeine, which relies on the imported fruit of a natural plant, how long do you think it would be before the coffee wars turned violent? Given what I know about coffee addicts (I'm the son of one and married to one), I'd give it about 8 hours before there was a knife at someone's throat, demanding they hand over the beans.

Sorry for the side-rant, but I'm trying to make clear the parallels at work here: government prohibition or disruption of the free market always creates a black market and more violence. Doesn't matter if it's coffee, coca, kush, or carbines.

Re: Periodic reminder: "Gun Control" Does Not Work

Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 7:41 am
by seamusTX
texas1234 wrote:Please try and post something newer than 2001.
Kates & Mauser was published in 2002.

Not much has changed in the area of "gun control" since 2001.

Rates of violent crime have been on a decline nationwide since the early 1990s. There is little public pressure for new or stricter "gun control" laws in the absence of perceived violent crime or prominent assassinations.

The "assault weapons ban" expired in 2004. This Wikipedia article can point you to some sources that show that the ban had no effect on crime: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_As ... eapons_Ban" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Other than that, a few more states got shall-issue concealed carry, and other minor improvements like unlicensed car carry in Texas.

Academics do not get paid to sit around and compile statistics showing that not much is changing. It would be like studying the toilet habits of wild bears. :mrgreen:

The questions that "gun control" advocates should be made to answer, and can't, are these:

It is illegal under current law for a minor or felon to acquire or possess a gun. It is illegal for anyone to transfer a gun to a minor or felon. In the places where most violent crime occurs, it is illegal to carry a gun in public. All violent crimes committed with guns are felonies. Many are federal felonies with long mandatory sentences.

With all those laws in place, why does "gun crime" still occur? And what further law would stop it?

If the U.S. completely banned the import, sale, and possession of handguns and ammunition for them, how would the behavior of criminals be affected?

How would the situation with illegal guns differ from the situation with illegal drugs, which are imported or manufactured here by the ton?

- Jim

Re: Periodic reminder: "Gun Control" Does Not Work

Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:43 am
by texas1234
Thanks. I didnt see the PDF at first but after printing and reading the PDF that is all that I needed. What I concluded from the PDF is that we should ban all human beings so guns, knives, ropes, rocks, bats, and blunt obects can finally live in peace. :rolll

Re: Periodic reminder: "Gun Control" Does Not Work

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:50 pm
by Kythas
seamusTX wrote:If the U.S. completely banned the import, sale, and possession of handguns and ammunition for them, how would the behavior of criminals be affected?
Criminals would find a substitute and we would find ourselves much like the U.K. where there is a debate regarding 'knife crime' and whether or not long bladed kitchen knives should be banned.

Re: Periodic reminder: "Gun Control" Does Not Work

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:11 pm
by seamusTX
That would happen to some extent.

I am also thinking that handguns would be smuggled in through the same channels as illegal drugs.

- Jim