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RE: Move by Obama & Hillary Clinton joing the UN Gun Ban Treaty which would through the State Dept.(effectively bypassing the Legislative Branch) ban all HAND & LONG GUN possession by law abiding citizens.
Has anyone researched this? What can we, as gun owners do to prevent this sort of action? Can we stop this? I , for one, do not intend on handing over all my weapons of self protection to be lead to slaughter if, and, or when, the countries supporting terrorists and the terrorists themselves, decide to invade our great country. I would rather my weapons be put into the hands of the street thugs and maybe they could prevent our country from being overrun as they (the street thugs) will be the only ones still armed if the above mentioned statement comes to pass.

I could be wrong here, but I don't think any treaty we get into can over ride the Constitution.

C-dub wrote:I could be wrong here, but I don't think any treaty we get into can over ride the Constitution.

I don't understand all of the legal limitations, but in certain cases they can. That is why this concerns me as well.

Edited to add: Treaties can override laws passes by Congress. If it turns out that the laws are not constitutional, the SCOTUS will have the final decision.

Treaties have to be approved by two-thirds of the Senate.

Two-thirds of the Senate cannot agree on lunch these days.

Here's the most recent statement of the NRA ILA on this subject: http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Feder ... px?id=5224" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have it on good authority that a treaty cannot violate a core provision of the Constitution. If anything like this were attempted (hypothetically), it would be brought before the Supreme Court. That is the same Supreme Court, minus Souter and plus Sotomayor, that ruled that the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right.

In addition, very few countries come close to favoring a ban on all firearms. Many countries have thriving civilian arms industries, hunting, and shooting sports. Thus, a treaty that bans all firearms for civilians is unlikely to see the light of day.

I have bigger worries.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:Treaties have to be approved by two-thirds of the Senate.

Two-thirds of the Senate cannot agree on lunch these days.

Here's the most recent statement of the NRA ILA on this subject: http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Feder ... px?id=5224" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have it on good authority that a treaty cannot violate a core provision of the Constitution. If anything like this were attempted (hypothetically), it would be brought before the Supreme Court. That is the same Supreme Court, minus Souter and plus Sotomayor, that ruled that the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right.

In addition, very few countries come close to favoring a ban on all firearms. Many countries have thriving civilian arms industries, hunting, and shooting sports. Thus, a treaty that bans all firearms for civilians is unlikely to see the light of day.

I have bigger worries.

- Jim

Thanks for that info: I may sleep better now

seamusTX wrote:Treaties have to be approved by two-thirds of the Senate.

Just to help, hopefully:
The 2nd Amendment states "...Congress may not abridge...." So the Senate's hands are tied by definition, as they're pulled into the scheme.
No treaty (just as no Federal law) can override the Constitution. Accomplishing that would require a 3/4 vote of the states, after a vote of Congress (read: Constitutional amendment).

So, the Executive trying to override the Bill of Rights through an external treaty would be about as unconstitutional as it gets, IMHO. The States doing so, of course, is still (at this moment) in question, but that's not the problem here.

Once again, there's a need for some Constitutional legal counseling in the Executive....

OldSchool wrote:Just to help, hopefully:
The 2nd Amendment states "...Congress may not abridge...."

Are you sure? I don't see that in my copy.

The patriot act is unconstitutional, yet, it passed. Why? Because we're CHEAP and LAZY. Where are all the millions of civil rights protesters camped out in D.C. like we had in the 60's? C'mon people, freedom is NOT free. I posted an offer to pay for clean cut college kids to go to Austin to protest for 2nd A rights and ZERO kids answered my post. I think I'm probably going to be the only one there! If your forefathers fought and DIED for your freedom, the least you can do is clear your schedule and drive down to Austin or DC (million man 2A march, google it) and stand there for a couple of hours. Or since there are so many unemployed now, put out a want ad in the local papers for a "job". Pay for some clean cut college kids to do it for you. Either protest with your wallet or your body. Either way, do SOMETHING or your rights will be gone forever.

You don't think that an unconstitutional UN treaty could be promulgated by big O, here, at home? Think again!

Sometimes, I feel like a dude trying to persuade Jews to protest just before Hitler came to power. Remember, Hitler was DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED. Democracy is mob rule without State's rights and a constitution that PEOPLE WILL PROTEST TO DEFEND. Sometimes, I think that those crazy radio wave mind control conspiracy theorists might be true. I mean, liberals loudly protest just about everything from seal hunts to oil rigs while we sit idly by whilst our rights are being whittled away.

Other crazy liberal protests for phony environmental and animal rights over HUMAN RIGHTS;
1. Seals have tripled in number since the 1970's. They number in the millions and are eating the fish that starving HUMANS need. How many hungry humans are there in this world? Seals aren't even close to being endangered and the hunted numbers are closely regulated with hunting licenses, so what the crazy MINORITY "environmentalists" are really protesting for is the STARVATION OF THE HUMAN SPECIES.

2. Our dependence on foreign oil has caused us to invade a crazy middle eastern country and plant a military base in another crazy middle eastern country, thus provoking terrorism. Yet, whenever we drill new holes in Alaska for oil, the crazy environmentalists come out and protest in force. When we were building the Alaskan pipeline, environmentalists monkeywrenched the pipeline. These are terrorist activities! What they're really protesting for is OUR CHILDREN DYING IN IRAQ AND PROVOKING TERRORISM. Front page news from the Wall Street Journal: Global warming is a liberal lie! 2 government think tank researchers who had evidence of GLOBAL COOLING had their data DELETED! We are entering into another ice age and our burning of fossil fuels is preventing this. Tell me, is it normal to SNOW/HAIL IN MARCH IN NORTH TEXAS? Has your groceries gotten more expensive or cheaper lately? Do you think maybe global cooling has made less land farm-able? I've made money going long on various agricultural futures. If you're a liberal who believes in global warming, do you dare bet against me with your life savings?

3. We have the technology to profitably turn coal into oil at above $50 per barrel. Oil was at $100 per barrel not too long ago. So, that's like half price oil! America has the WORLD'S BIGGEST STASH OF COAL. Even at our voracious rate of energy use acceleration, we have enough coal to last for at least 500 years.

4. Liberals want to ban guns. Has everybody forgotten the Holocaust? Stalin? Mao Tse Tung? Pol Pot? Remember, Hitler was DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED but the moral majority did not speak up against a vocal minority. 2nd amendment rights are not free. Freedom is not free. How many kids were shot, lynched, and beaten protesting for civil rights in the 60's? How many MILLIONS OF DOLLARS (in 1960's dollars, probably billions in today's dollars) were given to those kids by silent "wallet protesters" so that those kids could afford to march to Washington D.C.? Many people EMPTIED THEIR ENTIRE LIFE SAVINGS in order to support those civil rights protesters and anti-war protesters in the 60's. I invite you to realize that FREEDOM IS NOT FREE. Pay up! I invite you to join the NRA, Gun Owners of America, write your legislators, and participate in peaceful protests... before it's too late.

I am not as comfortable dismissing the idea of a treaty being treated as superior to the Constitution as others. I think it is not at the top of things to worry about, but there are efforts to promote this view by folks who think the US should bow to the international community -- particularly the leftist/statist portions of the international community -- and we have elected one of those as president.

Note that Article VI, section 2 states:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made , or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwith-standing.

Senator Bricker (R-OH) proposed an amendment in the 50s (aptly called the Bricker Amendment) to explicitly forbid subordination of the US Constitution to treaties -- but it failed to get out of the Senate by one vote. The SCOTUS ruled in Reid vs Covert that the SCOTUS has regularly recognized the supremacy of the US Constitution over treaties...but it also recognizes that, in spite of its plain text, 2A rights can be, if not banned altogether, circumscribed by law. And then you have Mr. "I don't worry about the Constitution."

I would like to think that a treaty could not override a "core" element of our Constitution, but then again, the "shall not be infringed" part has regularly been steamrollered, and without any help from internationalists.

Internationalists bear close watching, and it is better to fight them early than late.

all I can say is

tacticool wrote:

OldSchool wrote:Just to help, hopefully:
The 2nd Amendment states "...Congress may not abridge...."

Are you sure? I don't see that in my copy.

Sorry, wrong words, should be "shall not be infringed." "Congress" (and, really, the entire US Govt) is implied as being directed by the document. Fortunately, same connotations.

It seems to me the solution is to use the carrot and the stick to make sure that anti-RKBA legislation and regulation remain politically unacceptable, and to assure that appointees to the federal bench respect the constitution.

The first part isn't that hard. Most anti-RKBA proposals in congress have been non-starters since 2001. Political strategists openly discuss how toxic that kind of issue is, even if they would favor it.

The second part is a challenge, I'll admit.

- Jim

seamusTX wrote:It seems to me the solution is to use the carrot and the stick to make sure that anti-RKBA legislation and regulation remain politically unacceptable, and to assure that appointees to the federal bench respect the constitution.

The first part isn't that hard. Most anti-RKBA proposals in congress have been non-starters since 2001. Political strategists openly discuss how toxic that kind of issue is, even if they would favor it.

The second part is a challenge, I'll admit.

- Jim

Yes on both counts. The federal bench will not likely get "better" under the current administration. And Had W not squeaked by, Heller have been a disaster for us.

drjoker wrote:The patriot act is unconstitutional, yet, it passed. Why? Because we're CHEAP and LAZY. Where are all the millions of civil rights protesters camped out in D.C. like we had in the 60's? C'mon people, freedom is NOT free. I posted an offer to pay for clean cut college kids to go to Austin to protest for 2nd A rights and ZERO kids answered my post. I think I'm probably going to be the only one there! If your forefathers fought and DIED for your freedom, the least you can do is clear your schedule and drive down to Austin or DC (million man 2A march, google it) and stand there for a couple of hours. Or since there are so many unemployed now, put out a want ad in the local papers for a "job". Pay for some clean cut college kids to do it for you. Either protest with your wallet or your body. Either way, do SOMETHING or your rights will be gone forever.

You don't think that an unconstitutional UN treaty could be promulgated by big O, here, at home? Think again!

Sometimes, I feel like a dude trying to persuade Jews to protest just before Hitler came to power. Remember, Hitler was DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED. Democracy is mob rule without State's rights and a constitution that PEOPLE WILL PROTEST TO DEFEND. Sometimes, I think that those crazy radio wave mind control conspiracy theorists might be true. I mean, liberals loudly protest just about everything from seal hunts to oil rigs while we sit idly by whilst our rights are being whittled away.

Other crazy liberal protests for phony environmental and animal rights over HUMAN RIGHTS;
1. Seals have tripled in number since the 1970's. They number in the millions and are eating the fish that starving HUMANS need. How many hungry humans are there in this world? Seals aren't even close to being endangered and the hunted numbers are closely regulated with hunting licenses, so what the crazy MINORITY "environmentalists" are really protesting for is the STARVATION OF THE HUMAN SPECIES.

2. Our dependence on foreign oil has caused us to invade a crazy middle eastern country and plant a military base in another crazy middle eastern country, thus provoking terrorism. Yet, whenever we drill new holes in Alaska for oil, the crazy environmentalists come out and protest in force. When we were building the Alaskan pipeline, environmentalists monkeywrenched the pipeline. These are terrorist activities! What they're really protesting for is OUR CHILDREN DYING IN IRAQ AND PROVOKING TERRORISM. Front page news from the Wall Street Journal: Global warming is a liberal lie! 2 government think tank researchers who had evidence of GLOBAL COOLING had their data DELETED! We are entering into another ice age and our burning of fossil fuels is preventing this. Tell me, is it normal to SNOW/HAIL IN MARCH IN NORTH TEXAS? Has your groceries gotten more expensive or cheaper lately? Do you think maybe global cooling has made less land farm-able? I've made money going long on various agricultural futures. If you're a liberal who believes in global warming, do you dare bet against me with your life savings?

3. We have the technology to profitably turn coal into oil at above $50 per barrel. Oil was at $100 per barrel not too long ago. So, that's like half price oil! America has the WORLD'S BIGGEST STASH OF COAL. Even at our voracious rate of energy use acceleration, we have enough coal to last for at least 500 years.

4. Liberals want to ban guns. Has everybody forgotten the Holocaust? Stalin? Mao Tse Tung? Pol Pot? Remember, Hitler was DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED but the moral majority did not speak up against a vocal minority. 2nd amendment rights are not free. Freedom is not free. How many kids were shot, lynched, and beaten protesting for civil rights in the 60's? How many MILLIONS OF DOLLARS (in 1960's dollars, probably billions in today's dollars) were given to those kids by silent "wallet protesters" so that those kids could afford to march to Washington D.C.? Many people EMPTIED THEIR ENTIRE LIFE SAVINGS in order to support those civil rights protesters and anti-war protesters in the 60's. I invite you to realize that FREEDOM IS NOT FREE. Pay up! I invite you to join the NRA, Gun Owners of America, write your legislators, and participate in peaceful protests... before it's too late.

Wow....

P.S. Hitler never was actually elected.... he lost the 1932 election.

PSLOwner wrote:

drjoker wrote:Hitler was DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED but the moral majority did not speak up against a vocal minority.

Wow....

P.S. Hitler never was actually elected.... he lost the 1932 election.

How can this oxymoron be? Hitler was democratically elected but he only had the support of a vocal minority?

1. The July 31, 1932, election produced a major victory for Hitler’s National Socialist Party. The party won 230 seats in the Reichstag, making it Germany’s largest political party. Here's where Hitler's NAZIs got democratically elected.
2. Because of the political instability of repeated runoff elections and riots instigated by the NAZIs, to bring peace, President Hindenberg made a deal with the devil. On January 30, 1933, President Hindenburg appointed Adolf Hitler chancellor of Germany. Hitler only got 37% of the presidential vote, but due to some smart back room deal making, a vocal minority democratically won the election.

Do not let the small vocal minority of liberals win! We must reach out to minorities and young people, Obama's political power base, and show them the truth! The other day, I invited an African American gentleman from work, an orderly, to go shooting at the range with me. I took him out to lunch and we spoke at length about politics and other stuff. By the end of the meal, I had converted him to being a Republican. He was sorry he voted for big O. I suggest that y'all do the same!

Big O is NOT black. The reason Jesse Jackson lost the Democratic nomination is because he IS black, but big O is WHITE. How many black families do you personally know send their kids to private schools that cost an arm and a leg in tuition? O lived a life of privilege that few black families can even dream of. Big O promised to send our kids home from foreign wars, but he has actually INCREASED the number of soldiers and contractors in Afghanistan and Iraq. He calls this a "surge" but I call it a LIE. Since the military attracts lower income males with few other prospects, lots of blacks have enlisted. Big O has done more to kill black kids than any other president that I've known. What about abortion? Again, O's support of this has caused more black babies to be killed. Big O is like a Klansman with a very dark tan. Most blacks I know look the other way simply because of the color of O's skin. They hope that despite O's shortcomings, his presence in the presidency would give black kids a positive role model. They hope that black kids would have something more to look up to than sports, rapping, and gang banging. What big O brings to the table is hope, but you might be surprised to find that it is false hope whispered by a silver tongued serpent.

A link to the Wall Street Journal's expose of the global warming fraud:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 88354.html