TexasCHLforum.com

Hi,

I'd like to train myself to do point shooting. A training aid for point shooting (P&S) is to put your index finger just under the slide in an auto pistol and use your 2nd finger to pull the trigger. You grip the gun with your third finger, pinky, and squeeze the gun between your index finger and thumb. Then, you point to the target with your index finger and shoot.

However, I am afraid that if my finger slips over the crack between the lower receiver and slide, the hot gasses escaping out the side of the gun will blow my finger off. Will this happen on a Glock 19 or 26? Or am I just paranoid?

Something similar to this happened to a guy who was shooting a magnum revolver. He blew off his thumb. However, a revolver and an auto pistol are designed differently.

So, how's about it? Anybody ever accidentally slipped a finger over the right hand side of a Glock's crack between the slide and lower receiver while firing? Care to share your experience?

Thanks!


Point shooting pic:
Point shooting detailed instructions: http://www.pointshooting.com/

Improper revolver grip:

The result: WARNING image is grapic and shows a severed thumb http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_XU9x8G7khv0/S ... Thumb6.jpg

I have never attempted to fire a gun with my index finger at the juncture between an autopistol's slide and frame.

I strongly believe you would be much, much better off seeking handgun instruction elsewhere. There are numerous examples of people publicly demonstrating competency (ie, sanctioned competition shooting) using their index finger to operate the trigger, and I am certain no one has bested the top competitors by attempting to pull the trigger with their middle finger.

Furthermore, I strongly believe you would be better served by training to use your sights as a default. Thus, if in a competitive or personal protection situation you do not use your sights for whatever reason, you will have developed the coarse index and motor skills necessary to deliver a decent hit upon the target, even if it is not as good as one delivered via a perfect sight picture and trigger press.

It is not that point shooting does not work; given good instruction, aptitude and training time and ammunition, I believe it can work. However, I reckon the time and ammunition spent to learn point shooting would be more efficiently spent elsewhere or learning to operate a handgun while using the sights as the default method.

There are only two ways to get repeatable results when shooting - - - A sighted index and a contact index - - - the first one you use your sights the second one the gun is touching your target. The technique shown using the forefinger to "point" limits your grip strength and could cause a malfunction if you are pressing against the slide while firing. The only use for point shooting in a self defense situation would be shooting from retention and your attacker is less than 6 feet away.

There are only two ways to get repeatable results when shooting - - - A sighted index and a contact index - - - .

There some people who would seriously disagree with this -- specifically, they promote point-shooting also at close, non-contact ranges, transitioning to sights as range increases. Gabe Suarez is one, and he is associated with an instructor named Roger Phillips who specializes in teaching it. You can read more about it at this subforum, http://warriortalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=63" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , and more generally search on the Warriortalk forum you find other information. http://warriortalk.com/index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; They advocate testing this and other skills using Airsoft pistols against each other in force-on-force drills. I suggest going to see what they have to say.

I am intrigued about this enough that if I can at all swing it, I am going to attend one of their Texas courses (here: http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com ... mantx.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) This being a beginner/fundamentals course, they don't do FoF in this one, but I definitely want to go on to one that does. What

Specifically to the OP: I would not use the trigger finger for anything other than operating the trigger (and this includes holsters with security tabs that have to be pushed to draw), nor would I assign any other finger the roll of trigger finger - too much chance of getting signals crossed under pressure.

Also, keeping your thumb and everything else out of the way of the front of the cylinder is always a good idea!

drjoker wrote:Hi,

I'd like to train myself to do point shooting. A training aid for point shooting (P&S) is to put your index finger just under the slide in an auto pistol and use your 2nd finger to pull the trigger. You grip the gun with your third finger, pinky, and squeeze the gun between your index finger and thumb. Then, you point to the target with your index finger and shoot.

However, I am afraid that if my finger slips over the crack between the lower receiver and slide, the hot gasses escaping out the side of the gun will blow my finger off. Will this happen on a Glock 19 or 26? Or am I just paranoid?

Something similar to this happened to a guy who was shooting a magnum revolver. He blew off his thumb. However, a revolver and an auto pistol are designed differently.

So, how's about it? Anybody ever accidentally slipped a finger over the right hand side of a Glock's crack between the slide and lower receiver while firing? Care to share your experience?

Thanks!

The injury you are concerned about can happen with a revolver because very hot high pressure gases escape from the gap between the cylinder (which contains the cartridge chambers) and the forcing cone of the barrel just after the projectile passes this point. To get an idea of how much gas is involved, check out the following image showing the discharge of a .460 magnum revolver:



The shooter in the pic survived with thumbs intact because he had them properly placed on the grip of the gun instead of alongside the gap between the cylinder and forcing cone.

The discharge of gases at 90 degrees to the sides of the gun does not happen with semiauto pistols because the chamber is integral (part of the same piece) with the barrel, so there is no gap for gases to escape from. Here's what the propellant gas signature of a 9mm semiauto pistol looks like:



However, gas venting is possible if the cartridge case were to rupture during firing.

ELB wrote:I would not use the trigger finger for anything other than operating the trigger (and this includes holsters with security tabs that have to be pushed to draw), nor would I assign any other finger the roll of trigger finger - too much chance of getting signals crossed under pressure.

Also, keeping your thumb and everything else out of the way of the front of the cylinder is always a good idea!

Picture of thumb = OUCH!!!!!!

Now this may have changed in the thirty years or so, but when we were doing low-light (not dark) live fire drills with the 1911, we kept the index finger out of the trigger guard and until we had a potential target. We pointed and settled on a solution then dropped the index finger into the guard and discharged the weapon. This drill assumed a hostile area and safety was off. It worked pretty well with silhouette reactive targets.

Ok, I will admit, I did not read all of the responses to this post, but Mythbusters did a show on this specific topic a few months ago, but were only able to duplicate it with a .500.

Dragonfighter wrote:Now this may have changed in the thirty years or so, but when we were doing low-light (not dark) live fire drills with the 1911, we kept the index finger out of the trigger guard and until we had a potential target. We pointed and settled on a solution then dropped the index finger into the guard and discharged the weapon. This drill assumed a hostile area and safety was off. It worked pretty well with silhouette reactive targets.

That is one of the 4 safety rules is it not? Keep you booger hook off the bang switch until you have acquired your target and made the decision to destroy it!

Teamless wrote:Ok, I will admit, I did not read all of the responses to this post, but Mythbusters did a show on this specific topic a few months ago, but were only able to duplicate it with a .500.

If Mythbusters had a chance to prove that skunks smell bad, they'd substitute a stuffed cat for no apparent reason and declare the myth busted.

drjoker wrote:Hi,

I'd like to train myself to do point shooting. A training aid for point shooting (P&S) is to put your index finger just under the slide in an auto pistol and use your 2nd finger to pull the trigger. You grip the gun with your third finger, pinky, and squeeze the gun between your index finger and thumb. Then, you point to the target with your index finger and shoot.

Far better: point with your thumbs, and use your trigger finger on the trigger.

Edit to add: here are a couple of good explanations, with very clear pictures:
http://gunnuts.net/2010/01/15/high-thumbs-pistol-grip/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.shooting-performance.com/76.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for your safety concerns, it's not a problem (as Excaliber showed). If there was a problem with gas escaping on semi-autos, it would burn your thumbs on the other side.

I think there's a confusion of terms being used here. The example in the original post is not "point shooting".....it's "point and shoot". The technique of "point shooting" does not involve indexing the normal trigger finger in a "pointing position" while shooting, but rerlies more on instinct, practice and the front sight/muzzle only.

Just don't want others to have a misconception of the technique of "point shooting".

surv

Am I the only one that finds the picture unnecessarily gruesome? I understand getting the point across, but are we going start posting crime scene pictures of people decapitated and so forth?

Maybe someone could just attach a link with a warning. Also, did the person just stand there with their thumb blown off and pose for pictures?

ScottDLS wrote:Am I the only one that finds the picture unnecessarily gruesome? I understand getting the point across, but are we going start posting crime scene pictures of people decapitated and so forth?

Maybe someone could just attach a link with a warning. Also, did the person just stand there with their thumb blown off and pose for pictures?

Image changed to link and warning added

Mythbusters' science is often flawed, controls are sloppy and conditions only partially met...still fun though. But many times I've heard them declare something as busted or maybe plausible that was well documented to have happened at least once.

Anyway, thumbs up for posting this danger.